Off The Map Discussion Board for Christians, Atheists and People In-between

[luckycanuck]

isaone,

The word "completely" and your explanation resonate with me. I know that she knows a great deal about religion. If you were to quiz her on the tenets of Christianity and the Bible and so on she would pass with flying colours. She seems to enjoy the social/community aspects of the Church, she understands what I am driven by on an academic level, but I don't know if she really understands why it is so important to me. I'm not sure she knows why I take Christian doctrine seriously.

I think skepticism is healthy, whatever your belief system happens to be. For my part, I can academically understand her scientifically based atheism, and I can certainly agree with her on scientific matters, but I don't really understand atheism on the theological level.

It is as if we are speaking totally different languages. I don't know if either of us actually understands what Christianity/atheism means to the other, and I suppose that is why I am here. I want to find out what atheists think. Do you think my beliefs are a fraud? Could you truly be supportive of a ministry based on something you don't recognize? Is it trying to be the only atheist in the room?

I suppose the most important question I would put to atheists here is this:

What does Christianity mean to you?

I don't want to get sidetracked by talk of religion's influence in politics and the public sphere, but I would be very interested to know what atheists think my religion is all about.

I'll be heading off for work for a couple of weeks, but I will be back to check in afterwards, and I will be back to continue participating in this community.

[Siamang]

A thoughtful question, Billy.

If you asked what Christianity means to me, it means something like what Scottish Heritage means to me.

My Grandmother was born in Glasgow. The sum total of Scottish Culture in my life is a love of lamb dishes, tea and scones, and a couple of old Harry Lauder records.

It's not something I regard as particularly true for all people, or neccessary for all people. But Christianity is like a cultural heritage.

I'm descended from Scots, and some Irish and some Welsh, and probably a number of other things I'm unaware of. It's not terribly important to me. To me, I'm an American, and I have an American pride. Insult Ireland in front of me and I'll shrug. Insult America and you better have a good reason and a smile on your face!

But I would never deny an Irishman his national pride. I'd never say to an Irishman, "stop being Irish and be an American instead. It's the better nationality to be." It's just insulting and not even true. It might be better for some people, but it can't be better in all respects.

Do I think that the Christian worldview adequately describes the world we live in? No, not to my needs and purposes, and not in line with the world as I percieve it.

Other people yes, or no, or yes in some aspects, no in others, and to whatever degree of utility or accuracy or type or quality or amount of evidence that they require.

Christianity doesn't exist in a vaccuum, and cannot be assessed seperate from a person and his beliefs. When Christianity as a concept/tradition is practiced by people, it becomes something different. To me, "Christianity" is the practice of people who have a certain concept, tradition and set of beliefs about God and the universe. But that practice is real... I cannot say it doesn't exist!

Now, certain traditions within Christianity hold certain beliefs and make certain claims about the world we all share. Some hold up to close scrutiny better or worse than others. For the moment, I'm seperating those out. As of this point in my life, I have not seen evidence sufficient to compel me to believe in the supernatural claims contained within the traditions of Christianity.

But the practice of Christianity is cultural, to me. Or at least that's the best analogy I can think of at the moment.

[isaone]

Like any other word Christianity carries a Denotation and a Connotation. The Denotative definition for me is of course "A person who believes in the divinity of Jesus. My connotative definition is much less clear because I am fully aware of the vast differences between the various branches of Christianity and the opinions of each individual believer.

An interesting question for me is to look at my emotional definition of the term. What kind of impression do I get when someone self labels as a Christian?

The things that come to mind (sort of stream of consciousness)are mixed;

Positive

• Well Meaning
• Pleasant
• Supportive of their family
• Hard working
• Good Neighbors
• Patriotic
• Solid citizen
• Charitable (although this is not true for some of the Big Time Preachers)

Less Positive

• Conformist
• Not supportive of the rights of minorities
• Arrogant (their way is the only possible answer) and desirous to force everyone to live in the manner proscribed by their religion
• Unwilling to accept facts if those facts do not agree with their preconceived notions
• Dependent on others to tell them what is right or wrong
• Myopically irrational and therefore difficult to talk with when trying to reach compromises
• Unwilling to accept change
• Not knowledgeable about the details of their own faith

PS I am discussing my overall connotation. I feel that the Christians here on this board are not the rule. Am I wrong?

[luckycanuck]

I'm still off travelling for work but I have stopped in to check things in here.

I've had some limited contact with my atheist ex and she had a go at answering my question about what my faith means to her. Basically, she said it means what I make it mean to her.

In the past

[Siamang]

That's some sad and some harsh assessments. First I just want to react to that and say my heart goes out to you at this time. It can't be easy to have this kind of emotional turmoil.

I've been with my wife for 17 years now, for what that's worth. I'm still madly in love with her. But there was a period when we were first dating when I felt a tug of wanting her to be the one, at the same time as I wanted her to be a bit different from what she was like.

I don't know if both she and you are doing a similar thing, or if you two are actually incompatable. Only you can know that, and perhaps only in the fullness of time.

Her statements are pretty harsh. I don't know if these statements came from a correspondence that softened the blow or contained other statements that talked about the good side or whatever. Taken alone, however, these are statements that speak of her anger.

In couples counselling one thing that is taught is the nature of "fair fighting". Groundrules for settling the inevitable conflicts in a relationship are perhaps one of the key differences between a long lasting one and a short lived one. One of the cardinal rules of a "fair fight" is not to bring in the kitchen sink. By which they mean, if the argument is about leaving the toilet seat up, don't say "oh yeah, well you leave the laundry all over the house", and then they say "oh yeah? Well, your mother is driving me crazy!" In other words, keep the fight limited to what it's about. Don't store up grievances, decide if they're worth bringing up, and if they aren't FORGET THEM. All grievances have a statuate of limitations on them, and after that time, you can't bring them up!

Anyway, reading your lady friend's list... I wonder if they're "fair" or spoken out of anger and hurt. You may know that, or you may be able to tell better than I can. They sound like the words of someone who feels bad and may want to make you feel bad so that you can understand them (I'm not sure that ever works.)

Now it may be that you two haven't worked out your ways of settling these things. It takes time and work and a lot of late night discussions where the woman's been awake since 2am crying and they poke you and say "we have to talk."

[Ir (Helen)]

Billy,

Is it possible that this relationship has been more about you than her?

(Did you ever heard the joke - my husband loves this - "Ok, I've talked enough - it's your turn. What do YOU think about me?")

Think about this comment in your first post: "I never really found out what my faith means to her." How is that possible? Weren't you curious to know all about her and her thoughts and feelings? Didn't you ask her? If you did ask, did she feel free to be honest with you?

I could be wrong, but my guess is that there has been an imbalance in this relationship and she's now realizing it. She may be looking at the relationship and thinking "Wow, I bent over backwards for him" and now she's seeking to redress the balance. Being honest with you instead of just saying how wonderful you are is probably part of that.

Really, she is the one you should go back to, rather than virtual (sorry, no pun intended) strangers like us, if you don't understand what she meant. I suggest three things: be respectful, listen to her, make it about her not you. I suggest you first make it clear there's no way you want to think about marriage unless she wants to proceed in that direction (unless the two of you have already covered that). Then apologize for disappointing her. Don't presume upon her having any obligation to explain herself to you - but ask her respectfully if she'd mind being specific about what behavior hurt and disappointed her, because you want to do better (not only with her but with the other people you do and will have relationships with).

You said you're here to converse but in fact you've only conversed about you. You haven't asked questions about us or tried to get to know us. If that's how your relationship with her was, well, I can see why she'd be upset and angry when she took off her rose-colored glasses (which we all wear early in a relationship) and realized the imbalance.

I might have said things that are unfair about you - I don't know you; I'm guessing based on the scant evidence I have. All I'm asking is, you think about whether any part of what I've written could be true, and you seek to address it, if it is.

Helen