 |
Off The Map Discussion Board for Christians, Atheists and People In-between
(closed to new posts - to participate in ongoing discussion visit our sites otmatheist.com and conversationattheedge.com)
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Susan
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 95
Location: Idaho
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
JaysonB,
A lot of things come to mind, but, just so that we're clear, my intent with that comment was not to muck up this chat room with slanderous remarks. I apologize if I offended anyone. The fact remains, though, that people on both sides of the god/no-god debate have made some statements with either limited information or out of anger. Here's one example,
| Quote: | It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid, or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).
-- Oxford scientist and author Richard Dawkins |
For this above quote, the fact is that there are varying levels of belief in evolution. Though I'm a Christian, I do believe in micro-evolution, but not macro-evolution. For the record, micro-evolution (the development of a species over time) has been proven and is not contradicted by the Bible. Macro-evolution (we came from monkeys) is contradicted by the Bible and has not been proven. Therefore, Mr. Dawkins was either slamming all people of faith, regardless of the distinctions of their belief or their scientific knowledge, or he didn't know the difference. (Possibly, though, he wasn't thinking about what he was saying; he was just angry. I don't know.)
Another example can be found online, put forth by an "agnostic Baptist minister". He is trying to explain the "built-in defense systems" of Christianity as well as reveal our faulty logic. His first example is:
| Quote: | | (1)The non-believer cannot understand the things of God because he doesn’t believe; if you would only believe, then you would understand. |
The Bible doesn't say you have to believe in order to understand; it says that you have to seek. If someone is honestly searching for God, God is obligated to reveal Himself to that person. Then that person has a choice: believe or not. Perhaps he was referring to the spiritual truth that God gives those who have honestly sought for Him, believed in Him and grown in wisdom afterwards, but if so, he seemed to be making a sweeping generalization that eliminated any possibility of God reaching the unbeliever or imparting any wisdom or truth to the unbeliever. The Bible doesn't support this argument.
An example from the magazine, "Biblical Archeaology Review", which I subscribe to, Ms. Leith writes in the May/June 2006 issue:
| Quote: | | "In other words, Israel was essentially Canaanite and not--as the Bible claims--a nomadic group who entered Canaan from the west in the early Iron Age." |
Well, anyone who has studied the Old Testament as I have could tell you that the Bible actually makes it pretty clear that the Israelites were both Cannanite relatives (through Adam & Noah & Abraham) & a nomadic group who entered Canaan. Ms. Leith seems to be priding herself on showing the Bible to be in error, when she is simply showing that she knows less about the Bible than she claims.
I also occassionally read some of the websites for atheists and they have some pretty strange logic sometimes. I read them because I want to understand atheists and agnostics better so that I can help bridge the gap between us. There is so much petty arguing out there! It really sucks, actually. I often find on there places where they try to discuss Christianity and what Christians believe and they often fall into stereotypes or use faulty information. Honestly, if all Christians were how they described them, I certainly wouldn't want to be one. I think they're working with limited information. That's to be expected, though, since I doubt many of them have been to church lately or have become close friends with a Christian. Much of it seems to be a circulation of the same stuff back and forth between atheists (i.e. Christians are hypocrites, the Bible is full of contradictions, etc.)
I could also get into a long debate here about science and how the NEA has promoted certain theories as fact to the detriment of, not only our chidren's education, but of how we define what kind of information is "valid". Many people think that certain ideas have been scientifically proven, when they actually have not been. My point, though, was not to start such a long-winded, unending debate, but to show that we all face people who disagree with us. We all come across people who will debate something to the death, no matter how faulty their (or our) logic is. I prefer to avoid these kinds of discussions because they lead nowhere. If someone is genuinely trying to figure something out, that's different.
Something that I have learned from the Bible about spiritual truth is this: It is given only by God. (I Corinthians 2:14) That's why a person can study the Bible for a lifetime and never get it. That's why meaningless arguments can last forever and there's never a resolution. As I said before, such understanding is available to anyone, though, if they are only seeking (Matthew 7:7-8 & Psalm 34: .
I'm sure there are many other examples on both sides of the debate where people have spoken out of line. Who cares? I mean, do you swallow everything that someone else says just because he or she is also an atheist? Conversely, there are a lot of Christians out there talking off the tops of their heads and saying a bunch of stuff that's not supported by the Bible and stuff I certainly don't subscribe to! I've, no doubt, been guilty of it myself. We all make mistakes; let's face it! The point is this: don't believe something just because someone else tells you it's true. Do some digging and find out for yourself.
Susan
[/quote] |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Keith
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 187
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Isaone,
I am a Christian, and I cannot listen to the Bible Answer Man for more than about 7 seconds without wanting to throw the radio or myself out the window of my car. I appreciate your humility (seemingly beyond that of someone who would refer to themself as the "Bible Answer Man"). Though I recognize that my like or dislike of Mr. Hankie has nothing to do with the validity of his words, I just wanted you to know that not all Christians blindly follow his advice (or can even listen to it). Thanks as always. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Karen
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 847
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Susan"] | Quote: | | A lot of things come to mind, but, just so that we're clear, my intent with that comment was not to muck up this chat room with slanderous remarks. I apologize if I offended anyone. The fact remains, though, that people on both sides of the god/no-god debate have made some statements with either limited information or out of anger. Here's one example |
| Quote: | It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid, or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).
-- Oxford scientist and author Richard Dawkins |
Sorry, but I don't see what's uninformed or angry in that statement. At worst, I might say it's blunt, but straight talk is often useful in discourse.
Evolution is the unifying theory of biology. It has been proven multiple times through multiple scientific disciplines (paleontology, genetics, etc).
[If you're interested in learning more about it, there are some wonderful science buffs here who I'm sure can point you to the research. The Dover trial last year was a terrific primer on the history and current thinking about evolution, with cutting-edge presentations on the latest fossil evidence and genetic proofs. I'll try to find the website that had the relevant transcripts if you're interested in reading them. You might be surprised that one of the primary scientists who testified is a Christian who talked extensively on the stand about his faith in god.]
Those who claim "not to believe" in evolution (a better word choice is "not to accept the scientific facts," since there's not a "belief" component involved) are typically (wilfully or otherwise) uninformed about the science itself and the myriad proofs that exist for it. And that's just ignorance, sad to say. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Susan
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 95
Location: Idaho
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Karen,
Though "straight talk" is acceptable, name-calling, in my opinion, is pretty childish. To call someone "stupid" or "insane" because they don't agree with you is pretty pathetic, if you ask me. Even if you are discussing "proven facts", the truth remains that the other person may have simply misunderstood it or didn't read it or, perhaps, they have information not available to you or the researchers. Someone who is confident in what they believe shouldn't have to reduce themselves to such discourse. Even I, in quoting him, left open the option that perhaps he was just angry. I have no fight with him or with anyone.
As far as evolution is concerned, I didn't intend to debate that issue, but I'd be happy to look into your websites if you can come up with the links for me. I would certainly appreciate it if you passed them along. However, I maintain my position that evolution is a very vast field of research. Some of it has been proven; some of it is still very much theory. Just because someone claims not to believe in "evolution" doesn't necessarily mean they disagree with proven scientific fact. It could simply mean that your understandings of the term and its implications differ.
Susan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike C
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 600
Location: Yorkville, IL
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Can someone please help me understand these people ? |
|
|
| Quote: | | I am just so @#&9$(#*&$ B$&#*($*&#@@!!!! frustrated at the fact that people like this guy make the big bucks and have such influence while Paul Kurtz (CSICOP), Michael Shermer, Richard Dawkins, and James Randi are completely unknown I cannot stand it. |
I'm not familiar with Shermer or Randi, but I had certainly heard of Dawkins before. But to be honest, I had never heard of the Bible Answer Man before I came to this site and heard all you atheists ranting about him. I wonder if maybe more atheists listen to guys like this than actual Christians do...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Siamang
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 1144
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Susan wrote: | | As far as evolution is concerned, I didn't intend to debate that issue, but I'd be happy to look into your websites if you can come up with the links for me. |
Susan,
Here is a site with 29+ evidences for Macroevolution.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
Please note, this isn't a list of 29 facts that point to macroevolution. It's a list of 29 seperate lines of evidence, each line of evidence incorporating perhaps hundreds, thousands or millions of independant, interlocking corroborating findings. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TXatheist
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 1150
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Susan said | Quote: | | I do believe in micro-evolution, but not macro-evolution. For the record, micro-evolution (the development of a species over time) has been proven and is not contradicted by the Bible. Macro-evolution (we came from monkeys) is contradicted by the Bible and has not been proven. Therefore, Mr. Dawkins was either slamming all people of faith, regardless of the distinctions of their belief or their scientific knowledge, or he didn't know the difference. (Possibly, though, he wasn't thinking about what he was saying; he was just angry. I don't know.) |
Susan,
I'll let you answer the question then. How do we tell/explain/convince Susan that evolution(there is no such thing as macro-evolution, it's a phrase made up by creationists) is a fact and no reputable scientific program denies this?
p.s. We did not come from monkeys:) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TXatheist
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 1150
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Susan said | Quote: | | The Bible doesn't say you have to believe in order to understand; it says that you have to seek. If someone is honestly searching for God, God is obligated to reveal Himself to that person. |
Please use the bible to explain me then. I was a christian and attended church weekly and many times multiple attendance weekly. I am now a non-believer. I will not accept that I wasn't a true xian. That is incorrect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Siamang
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 1144
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here's also a great website I noticed, which might be more user-friendly. It's by the National Academy of Sciences:
http://newton.nap.edu/html/creationism/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
isaone
Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 354
Location: Nashville
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As I suspected those of you on this site think as little of the BAM as do I. It is good for me to be reminded that all Christians are not as he. What depresses me is my perception from polls and the mere fact that there are thousands of radio/TV/Cable outlets with his point of view, that they are the significant majority.
Susan it is interesting tat you choose to reference that Dawkins quote. It represents exactly what I wish to avoid in my opinions. However the more I read the books, listen to the media, and post on a couple of other forums, the more I am moved to believe that he is correct. I am curious. Could we agree on Mr. Dawkins statement if instead of Evolution we used the Flood and the YEC (young earth creationists). I agree entirely with Mr. Dawkins in these cases, do you?
PS Note that the term ignorant refers to both those who are willfully ignorant in that they refuse to listen to reason, those who simply misunderstand, and those who have never hear the evidence. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ir (Helen)
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 609
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
isaone, there was a day for me when I decided that arrogance in Christians was a deal-breaker for me, regardless of the content of what they were saying.
And I noticed that people who defend the Bible/Christianity seem prone to a level of arrogance that is unacceptable to me. Last time I listened (admittedly it's been a while), the BAM was one of those people I find unacceptably arrogant in tone.
(There are exceptions - not all Bible/Christianity defenders are arrogant; but what I noticed is that this 'speciality' does seem to attract people who are relatively 'black-and-white' and 'certain', which does make them sound arrogant, imo)
FYI I posted some of Susan's comments from this discussion on CatE this morning, with questions I'm hoping Susan will answer for me, here:
Only seekers understand the Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Karen
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 847
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Susan"] | Quote: |
As far as evolution is concerned, I didn't intend to debate that issue, but I'd be happy to look into your websites if you can come up with the links for me. I would certainly appreciate it if you passed them along. |
Siamang (as I suspected ) has already given you some great places to start.
The Dover trial transcripts I mentioned are available here:
http://www.aclupa.org/legal/legaldocket/intelligentdesigncase/dovertrialtranscripts.htm
They are .pdf files, so you have to save them to your computer and read them with Adobe (at least I have to).
I would recommend the testimony of Dr. Kenneth Miller (Day 1 and Day 2) and the testimony of Dr. Kevin Padian (Day 9). They are both engaging, plain-spoken scientists who are eminently qualified professionals - the tops in the world, probably.
Dr. Miller talks about his Christian faith on page 55 of Day 1 a.m., addresses evolution in contrast to intelligent design and explains what defines science starting on page 57 of Day 1 a.m., he gets into the modern genetic and molecular biological proofs for evolution starting on page 70 and following.
Dr. Padian talks about paleontology and evolution on page 61 of Day 9 a.m., and gets into some recent, exciting fossil proofs for evolution starting on page 70 and going into Day 9 p.m. It's macroevolution at its most glorious: dinosaurs evolving into birds, the transformation of huge mammalian jaw bones into our tiny inner ear bones - really great stuff. He brings out the proof that creationists will tell you doesn't exist.
| Quote: | | However, I maintain my position that evolution is a very vast field of research. Some of it has been proven; some of it is still very much theory. Just because someone claims not to believe in "evolution" doesn't necessarily mean they disagree with proven scientific fact. It could simply mean that your understandings of the term and its implications differ. |
Frankly, while it certainly encompasses vast amounts of scientific work and touches on multiple disciplines, evolution isn't all that tough a concept to follow. I think the whole confusion thing is another attempt by creationists to muddy the waters as much as possible so as to throw around maximum amounts of misinformation. You'll get concise, simple definitions for evolution, adaptation, natural selection and other relevant terms from the testimony I mentioned above. And - for court transcripts - they're pretty easy to read. Enjoy!  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
isaone
Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 354
Location: Nashville
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Helen it now appears to me that there are two kinds of Christians.
One is the kind that we have here reasonable, professional, and willing to talk about their beliefs with logic and humility. Perhaps as a result of their attitude they have fairly liberal Christian beliefs and generally are not trying to get those beliefs written into law to force me into their way of life.
The other group holds to these beliefs that I feel are easily proven to be incorrect, is arrogant, defensive, and while very willing to find any flaws in anyone else’s argument, is completely blind to their own issues. When pressed to defend their beliefs they simply quote the Bible and lots of anecdotal evidence or ignore my questions completely.
My ‘Holy Grail’ is to find someone who believes in some of these fundamentalist concepts but is a willing, polite, logical participant in discussions. Do those people exist? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Karen
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 847
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="isaone"] | Quote: | | My ‘Holy Grail’ is to find someone who believes in some of these fundamentalist concepts but is a willing, polite, logical participant in discussions. Do those people exist? |
Pastor Tim, who had Hemant speak from the pulpit during one of the sermons at his large, conservative evangelical church, is the only example I can think of off the top. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Keith
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 187
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Helen it now appears to me that there are two kinds of Christians.
One is the kind that we have here reasonable, professional, and willing to talk about their beliefs with logic and humility. Perhaps as a result of their attitude they have fairly liberal Christian beliefs and generally are not trying to get those beliefs written into law to force me into their way of life.
The other group holds to these beliefs that I feel are easily proven to be incorrect, is arrogant, defensive, and while very willing to find any flaws in anyone else’s argument, is completely blind to their own issues. When pressed to defend their beliefs they simply quote the Bible and lots of anecdotal evidence or ignore my questions completely.
My ‘Holy Grail’ is to find someone who believes in some of these fundamentalist concepts but is a willing, polite, logical participant in discussions. Do those people exist? |
Isaone,
Keep searching, bro. Frankly, I consider myself a pretty conservative guy, but I try not to be a jerk. It seems that because of my attempts at not being a jerk (some unsuccessful, I'm sure) others here think I am a liberal Christian, which I don't think I am - not that there's anything wrong with that (homage to Seinfeld) ...
Specifically what beliefs are you looking for? ... because I still believe in the historical, bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, and I think the Bible is an authoritative document for Christians today
However, many of the straw man beliefs that are often attributed to Christianity aren't necessarily held by everyone ... it doesn't bother me if you say the Bible is not "inerrant" or if you want to debate if God knows the future. Are you looking for someone who holds conservative straw-man beliefs so you can kick their rear on air? ... or do you want to talk with a living, breathing, complex follower of Jesus?
Because every follower of Jesus is complex ... I know fundy guys who are ultra-conservative but have certain areas of belief where they differ significantlly from the mainstream - and they are Dobson-Mr. Hankie-follower-types. I don't know if you're going to find one Christian who hits every belief you want. Christianity is a continuum, not two neatly-divided groups. This is where that "personal relationship with Jesus" stuff makes us hard to pin down. Good luck ... I still think you ought to pick the guys you want and pursue them, rather than pick the stereotype and try to find someone who fits it. Again, good luck in your search. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
