Off The Map Discussion Board for Christians, Atheists and People In-between

[Siamang]

In other threads, I'm kind of down on Senator Barak Obama's recent speech where he called Democrats out on a lack of visible connection to faith.

It started me thinking about Friendly Atheists, Friendly Christians, and those we'd call unfriendly.


The idea of the "Friendly Atheist" is one that I like and embrace. So often the words "Angry Atheist" go together. They're few and far between, but they are very visible.

I think Angry Christians tend to be more visible than their Friendly counterparts, too.


Obama speaks out against Michael Newdow in his speech:

[Marty]

Siamang - great thoughts and questions.

As you know - I am a convert from being an ignorant about and prejudice against Atheists - Christian to one who I believe (hope) has rid himself of that prejudice and has become an activist to try to bridge the gap between Christians and Atheists and to have all of Gods creations treat each other respectfully.

You played a significant role in my conversion. Your combination of being incredibly smart as well as friendly are the two ingrediants that have allowed me to learn from you. Although I admire your great science and analytical mind - and I know that you feel that that is important in getting Christians to understand beyond their own indoctrinations - as you know - that part has not made any difference to me in my coversion. I am a Christian that is not only in awe of God and his/her creation but I love what science ads to understanding the world and God. I think it is tragic that many Christians choose to make science the enemy and set them up so that if science is right - they must be wrong - and so they will do anything they can, including ignore or manipulate science to prove they are right.

For me I sense a major evolvement of TXatheist. For the first couple of months, his choice to be blunt and what seemed to me to be obnoxious kept me from being able to tune him in. During that time (before my conversion), from my standpoint, he had a negative impact on my tuning into others like yourself who were sharing your non-beliefs in ways that made me want to listen. The TXatheist of the last couple of months has conveyed his thoughts in what seem to me to be a more thoughtful and friendly way. Had he chosen to do that initially - he could have played a major role in my conversion. He has convinced me, even in the early days - that being an Atheist in Texas is even much more difficult than what I now understand in California - for which he has my great empathy. I might not have truly understood that as well if he had started out friendly.

Then there is Helen and Eliza - what two incredible women. I have sometimes wondered if Helen had just taken on a second screen name - but I think it would have been hard to fake all that scientific and medical knowledge of Eliza. Both of these women have made it clear that they are Atheists - while at the same time they have incredible Biblical knowledge and use it in a search for truth. Their balanced view and protection of both sides has been something to behold. This approach always has my attention and causes me to dig deep inside and examine my own beliefs.

I now have a bit better sense of what it is like to be an Atheist in America than I did four months ago - and I can not tell you how upset I get when I hear stories as you outlined - and it calls me to action. Like any other injustice - we must respond with action. It is one thing to call oneselves a Christian and in many cases - much different to act in Christian ways.

All of the above is to share with you my belief that for Atheists to ever to be accepted in our society and be able to be elected into the political process - it must come from being friendly. It also must include being assertive - and I understand that this is the rub that you can't figure out - and for the moment - nor can I. I am thinking about Martin Luther King and Ghandi and there approach and what there is to learn about bringing equality to Atheists. I haven't yet figured it out.

My sense is that what Gates and Buffett are doing and how they are doing it could be a starting point for many of the prejudice people to take another look. If these guys were out pushing their Atheism like Conservative Christians push there form of Christianity - it would probably take away and hinder there goal - which is truly make a difference in the world with there money - and now (many almost as importantly) with there committment of something that is not limitless for them - there time. I believe/hope that the fact that they are Atheists and that they are doing the things that I think Jesus is asking each of us to do - will become revealed in a way that will cause some/many people to really think about it - rather than just put up barriers.

I am hopeful that a charismatic Atheist leader who is balanced and strong will emerge that will help most of America assess him on the basis of whether he/she will contribute to making the world a better place - rather than on their beliefs of non-beliefs.

My hope is that in my lifetime such a person will emerge and deserve my vote for President. I would be pleased to help elect the first President who also is an Atheist.

[Siamang]

Thanks for your insight and kind words, Marty.

I had a thought when reading this. My thought is, atheists won't be listened to until christians speak out for us.

Otherwise we cannot cast our point of view in a way to gain sympathy.

If I say, "I don't think public policy X is fair to atheists" people will answer, "well, of course you say that, you're one of those godless atheists!"


Once others fight for our rights, we gain more than an ally, we gain credibility.

I'm for civil rights, but I'm not a minority.
I'm for gay rights, but I'm straight.
I'm for the rights of the poor, but I am not poor.
I'm for freedom of religion, but I am not religious.

What you helped me to see is that this isn't a struggle we can overcome alone. Luckily, we don't have to.

The path of the friendly atheist is to find and make friends of Christians who can help.

[NCxian]

[Julie Marie]

I agree.

[isaone]

Great ideas Siamang.

I agree completely. Only Nixon the Anticommunist could go to China and open up relations. The same is true for Athests. We cannot assert ourselves alone, there are simply not enough of us. The same however could have been said about many minorities who acheived equality only with the assistance of fair minded people who recognized that all people truly are equal.

[Siamang]

Yep. It's staring me in the face right now, and I wonder how I could have overlooked it for so long.

[Marty]

Just maybe you and other Atheists on this board have actually started that movement. I am a convert. Maybe we can call it:

Christians for Equal Rights and Respect for Athiests. CERRA

I would be willing to be a part of that movement.

My sense is that there are Atheists who feel driven to not only be accepted as they are (as we all should be as long as our beliefs do not hurt someone else) but also feel a need to convert others to Atheism and/or convince others that there is not a God. Atheists may be right (it will always be a mystery and a choice) - but a "God is a myth campaign" will only jeopardize the possibility of their being a movement that Christians like me are willing to participate and/or lead. My guess is that if I really new the statistics - I would find that this is true far less than I have a sense - but it is no doubt the perception of lots of Christians - and the Atheist cause (i.e. someday being able to come out without fear of being hurt in some way - or the ability to succeed at running for office, etc) is best served by Atheists encouraging other Atheists to act in ways most conducive to an improving acceptance of Atheists.

[isaone]

CERRA ! I love it Marty but may I suggest (Theists)TERRA instead. There is no reason to limit the membership to Christians only.

[Ir (Helen)]

Siamang wrote:

[isaone]

Of course TERRA could easily be confused with TERA (Topfree Equal Rights Association) (LOL)http://www.tera.ca/

[Julie Marie]

somehow I get the feeling that would be okay with Marty

[Marty]

I don't know a lot about the Theists who are not Christians (I even had to look up the definition.) But my sense (Atheists would know better) is that the prejudice against Atheists does not come from the Hindu's, etc - but particularly from the Religious Right and I guess I must also admit from Moderate Christians like me (previously) - I would not have thought about that five months ago. Even if the other Theists (Hindu's etc) had the same prejudice against Atheists as the Conservative Christians do - my guess is their comparative population is so small that they do not play a significant role in the problem Atheists have in being accepted in the United States.

I think that Moderate Christians - given more knowledge (i.e. this board would be a great place to start) and get to know Atheists personally (put a face on those that we have been prejudice against) would let go of their prejudices. They may well think that their way is better for them (I think that for me - and that is why I choose to believe in God) and some may also think it would be better for the Atheists to become more like them. I personally am no longer in this camp - several of the Atheists on this board and new Atheist friends that I have gotten to know in Santa Barbara have convinced me that they are moral MTWABP people, some of which who know the scripture far better than I do and seem to have searched it in a open way.

My guess is that the potential Moderate Christian allies who would consider it a higher calling to be respectful of Atheists and help them in obtaining equal rights and equal respect with the rest of the people - than it is to try and push the Atheists into believing as they do - the Moderate Christians no doubt don't think about or refer to themselves as Theists and they would not want to be thought of as being in a category of believing there are multiple Gods.

My guess is that Conservative Christians are never going to accept the Atheists as equal human beings and fight for Atheists rights and ever be willing to support an Atheist as being a school teacher - let alone President. I am not sure that Moderate Christians such as myself are perceived as much better - and maybe even worse by them. Some would probably say/feel that at least the Atheists opennly acknowlege that they don't believe in God/Jesus etc and my type of Christian is even worse because we don't believe in their view of God/Jesus - but claim that we are yet Christians.

I think that Siamang is probably right that it will take the Christians to lead the way in bringing equality and respect for the Atheists - and again, I would be most pleased to help in that effort.

For all these reasons - my sense is that we are far more likely to gain the support of the Moderate Christians with a movement called Christians for Equal Rights and Respect for Athiests - CERRA - then we are if Christian -CERRA - is replaced with Theist - TERRA.

I think this is a really important discussion and I hope that we will collectively continue to share/brainstorm on what can be done. I wonder if this might/could be the reason that Jim and Hemant brought us all together. If we collectively can do something practical to break down these barriers and overcome the prejudices and bring about true equality and respect - I will consider all of this a major success - and we will have indeed help make the world a better place.

I hope Helen will pick up on this and create a blog thread that will focus on developing practical ways to do something tangible together.

[Marty]

Julie Marie

[Julie Marie]

sorry Marty...sometimes I say things I shouldn't.