Off The Map Discussion Board for Christians, Atheists and People In-between

Siamang · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 1144

Okay threading my comments out to here, because they're more of a stronger nature than I like in the other board.

Here's where the conversation left off:

http://off-the-map.org/atheist/2006/06/19/why-do-academically-experienced-people-believe-in-god-less/#comments

And here's my post I wanted to thread out here:

(I have been listening to part 3 of the discussion between Pastor Tim of Parkview church and Hemant)

ooookay.... pastor tim just called The Big Bang "evolution."

I must stop listening before my brain explodes.

I'll thread the rest of my comments here:

Hemant, I'm glad it was you and not me.

I would have said something very unfriendly, like "no wonder you don't find any of my arguments compelling...." and finished the sentence comparing his science education unfavorably to that of someone or something with a bad science education.

I would have then wound up recommending an immediate remedial course for him in elementary scientific concepts. Like the difference between biology and astrophysics.

Ir (Helen) · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 609

Siamang, listen to part 2 as well because there's another discussion about scientists in that one. It begins when Hemant comments on Pastor Tim's desire to see ID taught in schools along with evolution.

Hemant raised the issue because he'd read this paper of Pastor Tim's, which is on his church's website:

http://www.parkviewchurch.com/creationism-harlow-2006.pdf

skikid · Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 20

I skimmed through some of the 'paper' Helen posted (it is wierd to use that name for you though Smile

) . I find myself unconvinved of anything Dr. Harlow was trying to assert but also wondering if I might be more convinced if I did not have significant scientific trainging. He sets most of it up well and to the non-science person I wonder how it looks.

Siamang · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 1144

AAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!

I need to wash my eyes out with that one!

He starts with the cover of this issue of National Geographic magazine:

And says in his letter:

Siamang · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 1144

Here's the article that National Geographic Titled "Was Darwin Wrong? (NO. The Evidence for Evolution is Overwhelming.)"

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0411/feature1/fulltext.html

Read it for yourself and see if it's accurate to say it supports the idea that "many people - scientists included" would like to see the education pendulum swing back toward creationism.

Ir (Helen) · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 609

Siamang, Hemant just posted a detailed rebuttal to Pastor Tim's document on his website.

I'm going to mention it on the eBay atheist blog tomorrow.

Karen · Joined: 24 Apr 2006 Posts: 847

[quote="Siamang"]

Siamang · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 1144

Sorry if I'm a little hot under the collar over this.

I just want to impress on people that even if you don't know the science behind this, you can understand which side uses tactics like selective quoting and misrepresenting the scientific arguements.

In my wildest dreams I hope Pastor Tim reads this and thinks a little about the state of his science education.

I'd love for him to assess honestly his own humility in presenting himself as a science expert to parents, children and their teachers.

I think someone can be a crummy science teacher but perhaps a very good pastor.

I think a very good pastor would be honest with himself. I think a very good pastor would say, "you know, I have questions about evolution. I don't think I know enough about it to criticize it. Perhaps I've been getting all of my science opinions from Answers in Genesis and books by the Discovery Institute. "

I think a very good pastor would be open to his own questions, and humble in his own level of education. I think a very good pastor, with his mind on his responsibility to his flock, would take a couple nights a week and enroll in some intoductory science courses at the local public university or community college. I think if he got a couple of years of college level evolutionary biology, physical anthropology, etc, he could better judge the quality of evidence and the reliability of the sources he uses for his criticisms.

And he's probably strong enough in his faith not to worry about being indoctrinated into "Darwinism" and "propaganda."

Siamang · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 1144

"Ir (Helen)" wrote

Siamang · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 1144

Keith · Joined: 04 May 2006 Posts: 187

Siamang,

I'm behind you ... Pastor Tim was out of line to misrepresent National Geographic magazine ... thanks for your passion about injustice ... you are appreciated, man

Julie Marie · Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 867 Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC

ditto.

Nutrideath · Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 90 Location: Charlotte, NC

Its dishonesty like that that gives religion a bad name.

Eliza · Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 800 Location: Seattle WA

Good for you, Siamang, for not letting it go unaddressed.

Accepting only evidence and opinions that support one's view, especially when that means ignoring or denigrating or twisting solid evidence to the contrary, is self-delusion and is anathema* in science. (*Ironically, originally a biblical term.)

When the person is in the position of advising parents on their children's education, it's an attempt at mass delusion and should be anathema in the group. And the school. And the society, imo, but let's not take a vote across the U.S. on that one.

I wonder how teachers have responded to Pastor Tim's handout?

Siamang · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 1144

If I were a teacher who got one I'd schedule a free after-school biology lesson for parents once a week.