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isaone
Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 354
Location: Nashville
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 Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject: Give me Freedom From Religion or Give Me Death |
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I am scared, if this is the country I love something has to be done about to ensure religious freedom before it is toooooo late. I have just finished listening to part of today’s Fresh Aire with Teddy Gross . On the show she interviews Michael Farris the founder of Patirck Henry College. He started the college to provide a place for home schooled Christian students. All students must sign a statement of faith stating among other things that they believe in the Trinity, Man’s inherent sinfulness, and the inerrancy of the Bible (also read the scary statement of Biblical World View). This guy is so out of touch with reality that he seems to think that PTC represents freedom because “The enemies of freedom and truth dominate our elite colleges and universities and thereby dominate our nation”. The bozo show shis unbelievable ignorance of Science by stating that Scientists “reject as a matter of faith any presupposition that would allow them to believe in any alternative, despite the facts” and therefore will not accept Intelligent Design. At this point I got so worked up I had to write this post. I will see if I can work up the courage to continue.
So why do I care? After all this college has only 160 graduates in total (they opened in 2000). I care because 7 of the 100 Whitehouse interns are from PTC, I care because a large number are interns in other government offices and the RNC, and I care because this guy refers to his students as the Joshua Generation who will “take back the land”. Does anyone out there need to be reminded of what Joshua’s generation in the Bible did to the previous inhabitants of the promised Land? I care because I truly (as I have said before) believe that 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago PTC would have been a joke and simply faded away. Now they are thriving and building the next generation of powerful connected politicians. Jim, I know you and others on this board feel the tide is turning away from fundamentalism, I would love to agree with you but I simply do not see the evidence. |
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NCxian
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 597
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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It is kind of weird (synchronicity, I understand is the word) that you are thinking about this right now, too. I have just come upon an organization of clergypeople who are opposed to the "preserve marriage" amendment or whatever it is called. I posted it in the homosexuality thread, but I was wishing we had an active separation of church and state thread for it to go in. The issue for many of these folks is not the homosexuality one, but the imposition of religious morality on everyone in the country (and how that is just wrong-headed). Check out the denominational statements from the left hand column for some pretty strong language for folks who are usually just "trying to get along".
http://www.clergyforfairness.org/ |
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Eliza
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 800
Location: Seattle WA
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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This is scary. The statement of faith is more than just that; its a vision for a government (and country) run based on Biblical law. Some quotes from the statement: | Quote: | Private Property. As God's image-bearers with dominion, and stewardship responsibilities, over the remainder of creation, men and women have the inalienable right to own and manage their own property, subject to government regulation only in the unusual situation where the rights of others are endangered. Government systems such as communism and socialism, which give the government primary control over property, are a violation of God's creation order.
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| Quote: | | Creation. Any biology, Bible or other courses at PHC dealing with creation will teach creation from the understanding of Scripture that God's creative work, as described in Genesis 1:1-31, was completed in six twenty-four hour days. All faculty for such courses will be chosen on the basis of their personal adherence to this view. PHC expects its faculty in these courses, as in all courses, to expose students to alternate theories and the data, if any, which support those theories. In this context, PHC in particular expects its biology faculty to provide a full exposition of the claims of the theory of Darwinian evolution, intelligent design and other major theories while, in the end, teach creation as both biblically true and as the best fit to observed data. |
| Quote: | Some governments are not legitimate; some authorities are not lawful. (Hosea 8:1-4) These are governments that do not recognize or that choose to ignore that human beings are created in God's image and therefore are entitled to the enjoyment of certain rights and responsibilities that inhere in their nature. Such societies and such governments are under God's judgment. (Jeremiah 18: 7-10) Nevertheless, there is a proper way to rectify this situation.
...But when such a government 1) commands disobedience to God, 2) enjoins the right and duty of human beings to worship God, 3) denies other God-ordained rights by extreme oppression and tyranny, or 4) "when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object (tyranny), evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism" it is the right and duty of godly men and women "to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security." Importantly, this action must be taken in accordance with God's laws and in submission to other legitimate authorities, anarchy being as illegitimate as tyranny. (Jeremiah 32: 32-35; Acts 5: 29) |
| Quote: | | Civil Government. God himself has ordained government and commands that everyone must submit to government; moreover, there is no authority except that which God has established. (Romans 13: 1-5) Consequently, he who rebels against lawful authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment upon themselves. It is necessary to submit to government, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. We are to pray for all who hold public office, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. (Proverbs 14: 34-35; I Timothy 2: 1-2) |
| Quote: | | The Holy Scriptures. The Bible in its entirety (all 66 books of the Old and New Testaments) is the inspired word of God, inerrant in its original manuscripts, and the only infallible and sufficient authority for faith and Christian living. [II Timothy 3:16-17; II Peter 1:20-21; Hebrews 4:12; Psalm 119:11] |
This is an example of the extremes that can happen when a belief system includes assurance that it is Truth. This is really scary... |
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Siamang
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 1144
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The Bible in its entirety (all 66 books of the Old and New Testaments) is the inspired word of God, inerrant in its original manuscripts, and the only infallible and sufficient authority for faith and Christian living. [II Timothy 3:16-17; II Peter 1:20-21; Hebrews 4:12; Psalm 119:11] |
The Bible is inerrant, according to the Bible!
I'd be laughing right now if I wasn't in mortal fear for the future of this nation. |
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TXatheist
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 1150
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| I did hear that statistic one time about interns being from a christian college and then going on to Washington DC. It's one reason I personally do not think vouchers and private schools are a good thing. If parents want their kids to learn that stuff then they should also come to face some issues when trying to get in college or graduate high school. If a kid doesn't acknowledge the old earth, how evolution occurred and man did not live with dinosaurs that should be a huge problem in allowing that kid to graduate not to mention that school being accredited. PBS had a nice mini-series a few years ago where kids went to a christian college in Illinois and when they came home there were some serious discussions about evolution. I was completely impressed at how the christian college taught evolution without insulting the belief in god. I thought it was an excellent way to reconcile faith and science by not comingling the two. |
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Siamang
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 1144
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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I remember seeing that one as well. Those poor young kids, I remember thinking. They go off to college, and they do come to accept the overwhelming evidence for evolution, and then they go back to their hometown and talk to their families.
And their own parents treat them like the devil himself. It's like they came back and said they had become gay atheist communists. |
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Mike C
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 600
Location: Yorkville, IL
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| TXatheist wrote: | | PBS had a nice mini-series a few years ago where kids went to a christian college in Illinois and when they came home there were some serious discussions about evolution. I was completely impressed at how the christian college taught evolution without insulting the belief in god. I thought it was an excellent way to reconcile faith and science by not comingling the two. |
Yeah, that was my school. In fact I was on that program, though not as one of the kids they featured. They only gave me one line in the whole thing.  |
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Mike C
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 600
Location: Yorkville, IL
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Eliza wrote: | This is scary. The statement of faith is more than just that; its a vision for a government (and country) run based on Biblical law. Some quotes from the statement: | Quote: | Private Property. As God's image-bearers with dominion, and stewardship responsibilities, over the remainder of creation, men and women have the inalienable right to own and manage their own property, subject to government regulation only in the unusual situation where the rights of others are endangered. Government systems such as communism and socialism, which give the government primary control over property, are a violation of God's creation order.
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| Quote: | | Creation. Any biology, Bible or other courses at PHC dealing with creation will teach creation from the understanding of Scripture that God's creative work, as described in Genesis 1:1-31, was completed in six twenty-four hour days. All faculty for such courses will be chosen on the basis of their personal adherence to this view. PHC expects its faculty in these courses, as in all courses, to expose students to alternate theories and the data, if any, which support those theories. In this context, PHC in particular expects its biology faculty to provide a full exposition of the claims of the theory of Darwinian evolution, intelligent design and other major theories while, in the end, teach creation as both biblically true and as the best fit to observed data. |
| Quote: | Some governments are not legitimate; some authorities are not lawful. (Hosea 8:1-4) These are governments that do not recognize or that choose to ignore that human beings are created in God's image and therefore are entitled to the enjoyment of certain rights and responsibilities that inhere in their nature. Such societies and such governments are under God's judgment. (Jeremiah 18: 7-10) Nevertheless, there is a proper way to rectify this situation.
...But when such a government 1) commands disobedience to God, 2) enjoins the right and duty of human beings to worship God, 3) denies other God-ordained rights by extreme oppression and tyranny, or 4) "when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object (tyranny), evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism" it is the right and duty of godly men and women "to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security." Importantly, this action must be taken in accordance with God's laws and in submission to other legitimate authorities, anarchy being as illegitimate as tyranny. (Jeremiah 32: 32-35; Acts 5: 29) |
| Quote: | | Civil Government. God himself has ordained government and commands that everyone must submit to government; moreover, there is no authority except that which God has established. (Romans 13: 1-5) Consequently, he who rebels against lawful authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment upon themselves. It is necessary to submit to government, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. We are to pray for all who hold public office, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. (Proverbs 14: 34-35; I Timothy 2: 1-2) |
| Quote: | | The Holy Scriptures. The Bible in its entirety (all 66 books of the Old and New Testaments) is the inspired word of God, inerrant in its original manuscripts, and the only infallible and sufficient authority for faith and Christian living. [II Timothy 3:16-17; II Peter 1:20-21; Hebrews 4:12; Psalm 119:11] |
This is an example of the extremes that can happen when a belief system includes assurance that it is Truth. This is really scary... |
Could you elaborate more? I'm not sure I understand what part exactly you find "scary". I can understand why you'd disagree, but why is it "scary"? |
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isaone
Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 354
Location: Nashville
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 3:56 am Post subject: |
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I am generally scared because;
- These people want to do to take away my rights to religious freedom
- They are irrational in that they have been taught to believe in things which are demonstrably not true (inerrant Bible, 6 24 hour day creation..). An irrational person is very scary to me in that their actions are not understandable and since they believe in a reality which is not fact based there is no common ground for compromise
- They consider this life to be a ‘throw away’ so they are willing to sacrifice everything that means anything to me for something I do not think exists thus damaging my only (IMO) existence
- They are anti democratic in that they believe all truth comes from a book that can be interpreted many ways so a small group interprets the book and then enforces that version on all of us
and Especially BECAUSE!
- They are becoming more and more powerful and thus able to implement the things of which I am so scared
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Julie Marie
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | . On the show she interviews Michael Farris the founder of Patirck Henry College. He started the college to provide a place for home schooled Christian students. |
I don't have time to find the article, but 3 or 4 faculty refused to come back to the college because of Farris's inflexible theological stance and ham fisted handling of this faculty. This is getting quite a bit of coverage in the Christian world.
Also, the school was refused accreditation because they teach creationism.
Sometimes things need to get really extreme for the moderates to say WHOA NELLIE!!!! Lets back up a bit here and re-think this thing....
I think that is what is happening now. |
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TXatheist
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 1150
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Mike,
where were you in the movie? I have the thing but have haven't watched it since it aired. Please be specific as you can. |
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Julie Marie
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| ps Farris may be the founder, but he had to step down as President after the big flap and faculty exodus. |
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Eliza
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 800
Location: Seattle WA
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: |
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This section from the "oath" (redacted in part here) is probably the single scariest to me - I read it as suggesting that it would (will?) be OK to overthrow/over-run/over-take, the US government if (because?) it's too secular. As I read it, in these people's eyes, separation of church and state is wrong. And of course, it's their way or the highway. Because, of course, they know The Truth. | Quote: | | Some governments are not legitimate...Such societies and such governments are under God's judgment....Nevertheless, there is a proper way to rectify this situation....when such a government 1) commands disobedience to God*, 2) enjoins the right and duty** of human beings to worship God...it is the right and duty of godly*** men and women "to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security." Importantly, this action must be taken in accordance with God's laws and in submission to other legitimate authorities****... |
*commands disobedience to God: this could be read as allowing religious freedom, or allowing secular education, imo
**duty of human beings to worship God: see * above, same thing - also suggests that they think it could/should be against the law not to worship the Christian God (presumably, in the way they think is correct)
***duty of godly men and women to throw off such Government: this is where it looks like they are justifying a take over of US secular goverment, as a God-directed duty
****in submission to other legitimate authorities: I would imagine this means The Church (whichever one/ones the authors think is Correct) and/or the Leaders of the True Believers - one could imagine the authors of this document believing they are in that group
Mike, does that help explain why this comes across as scary? |
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NCxian
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 597
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I don't have time to find the article, but 3 or 4 faculty refused to come back to the college because of Farris's inflexible theological stance and ham fisted handling of this faculty. This is getting quite a bit of coverage in the Christian world. |
Wow, you are right, Julie, this is getting a lot of coverage. I did some searching after seeing your post. Here is what somebody named "Heretic for Christ" posted in response to the article over at Beliefnet.
| Quote: | | Dogmatism is not merely a betrayal of academic scholarship and human rationality; it is a confession of failed faith. |
I thought that was pretty smart. |
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Karen
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 847
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Give me Freedom From Religion or Give Me Death |
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| isaone wrote: | | On the show she interviews Michael Farris the founder of Patirck Henry College. He started the college to provide a place for home schooled Christian students. |
Ugh! I was listening to this on my headphones in the orthodontist office yesterday (waiting for my son) and my blood was boiling hearing this incredibly arrogant, pompous SOB! It is frightening to know that he's got so much power, at least within certain political, religious and social groups. His disdain for the idea of "tolerance," which he described with a contemptuous sneer in his voice, was quite shocking.
| Quote: | | Jim, I know you and others on this board feel the tide is turning away from fundamentalism, I would love to agree with you but I simply do not see the evidence. |
You know, I'm sure I may be accused of being alarmist, but I think back on pre-Nazi Europe. There was a highly educated, socially liberal population of deep thinkers and secularists who undoubtedly thought they were beyond the reach of fascism in their lifetimes. And then the curtain of Hitler descended so quickly and so inexorably on them, they scarcely had time to realize it was happening.
I think it was Jefferson who said, "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." There are those who dismiss the radical dominionists as just a fringe element who are going to come to nothing in the larger scheme of things. I just wish I were that confident, but I'm not. |
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