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Off The Map Discussion Board for Christians, Atheists and People In-between
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Esther
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 20
Location: BC, Canada
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 Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: Hi, this is Esther |
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Hi, although I began commenting ever since this Atheist aution thing commenced, I have never officially introduced myself. It was because before this discussion board had been set up, I found myself already reviewed most of my life while interacting with the bloggers. Therefore, I kind of see no need of doing that again.
However, because I've just attended an UU Church last Sunday (May 14) and have also written a review on it, I think I have the need to introduce myself for the ones who have not read my former comments.
I will be 42 years of age in October. I am a Chinese who was born and raised in Hong Kong. I immigrated to Vancouver, BC, Canada 26 years ago. I studied Psychology in University of Manitoba but have worked in the media field since 1987. I had worked in a Chinese ethnic national TV Station as News translator, News reporter, Documentary program producer, program host, and big event program producer (i.e. Miss Chinatown beauty peagent).
I have left this field completely and have just gotten my Life Insurance Licence last October. I changed my career path mainly because of financial reason. However, I am so grateful that I found myself loving my new job just as much as my old one.
My father is a Christian Church pastor all his life. My mother is also a zealous Christian who are actively involved in the ministry as a Pastor's wife. (She was an elementary school teacher and later became principle in HK. She retired and involved in Church work after we immigrated to Canada) The church I grew up into was Fundamentalist Evangelical's.
I remembered I have had many questions about the Bible since 10 years old. My parents and Sunday School teachers were quick to give me all the "answers" when I raised them out. I remembered I was not satisfied with their answers but was quickly learnt that they cannot give me anymore of the explaination. The most important thing I also learnt as a child is that I'd better not ask any further for I will be viewed as the "trouble" kid. I quickly conformed to the FE Xian model and think and speak the way they taught us to.
As a result, my FE Xian view of life is as follow:
- There are only 2 categories in the world: the saved vs the unsaved
- All the things the unsaved people do are worthless for they will not last in eternity.
- Anything the saved Xians do have eternal value.
- The saved ones then have a tremendous responsibility to "save" the loss.
And as a result, I became a person who was:
- deprived in many real life experience and knowledge.
- living my life very naive and with a simple mind.
- although on the outside I am like a leader, very outgoing, very outspoken, deeply inside I have very low self-esteem and am a people- pleaser (person of codependency).
I ended up marrying very young to an abusive christian man (emotionally & verbally abusive). I had 2 sons since and had stayed home for 10 years to raise them. (They are now 15 & 13) 10 years ago, which is also 10 years in our marriage, things exploded in our marriage and I thus found out what a mess I was in. I knew I needed to leave my husband but no one around me approve me for leaving him. Because I was still weak as a person, I had to stay married for 8 more years.
Nevertheless, that was the turning point in my life.
I began a recovering journey on one hand learning how to recovered from being an abused victim, and on the other hand searching "bare and raw" spiritually. The journey was lonely and slow. But books just "came to me" in the right sequence. I've also gone through councelling and group therapy. I began to develop many different views from my FE Church's teaching. I also slowly found back my true self and be able to make decision for myself and be brave enough to fully assume the responsibility of all of my choices.
In fall, 2004, I initiated for a seperation and moved out with my 2 sons. I also resigned from the TV station and studied for my licence.
I read "A New Kind of Christians" in 2003; bumped into "Off the Map" last October and went to their conference in Nov. Interacted with all of you since Feb. and my journey of faith just accelerated.....
I have visited an UU Church last Sunday and have written a review of the experience. It maybe posted on the main blog. |
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NCxian
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 597
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, Esther, although I have read your posts from the beginning, I didn't really realize what a harrowing journey it must have been. I am always impressed by the stories of preacher's kids who are able to come to grips with their own spirituality. Thanks for sharing that!
And I'm glad to see you back! |
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Julie Marie
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| thanks for taking the time to consolidate, Esther. I'm sorry I live so far away, I'd love to meet you and enjoy some of your journey with you. Both of my sisters had friends who were Chinese (first generation American) and the cultural mores are quite different from American. I have no doubt you are a leader - to have had "yourself" prevail over in the reality that was your life is really a heroic story, imo. I have a ton of respect for you! |
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Esther
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 20
Location: BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you, NCxian and Julie.
Although I have not met most of you in person, I already feel "close" with all of you.
In the past 9 years, since I was still surrounded by FExians, I could not move too much forward. Every radical ideas were just emerging inside me but could not formed any concrete thought.
And then I "met" with all of you here. The articulation, the boldness, the free thinking, the way you all have explained your reasoning..... really have stimulated me so much.
Although sometimes I could not afford the time to engage into your discussion, I was still reading along. So, I am always here.
But, I know, we miss seeing each other's signature, right?  |
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Ir (Helen)
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 609
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 4:45 am Post subject: |
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Hi Esther,
Thanks for sharing about yourself here.
By the way, everyone, Esther's UU experience is now posted on the eBay atheist blog here:
Esther's First UU Experience |
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Eliza
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 800
Location: Seattle WA
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Hi Esther - thanks for telling us more about your background. It must have been hard to have questions you know you shouldn't ask, and then on top of that to have to find your way out of an abusive marriage & land on your feet - what strength that takes! |
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NCxian
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 597
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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Esther: I didn't want to divert the UU conversation over on the main blog, so . . .
I noticed that you took your teenagers to church before you went to UU. So I am guessing they are staying with your old church. How are they feeling about this transition period for you? |
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Esther
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 20
Location: BC, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| NCxian wrote: | | I noticed that you took your teenagers to church before you went to UU. So I am guessing they are staying with your old church. How are they feeling about this transition period for you? |
I have not explained my transition in details to them yet. It does not mean that we don't have a close relationship, we are very close to each other and we talk with each other a lot. However, I do not share with them everything that is happening in my life ( I believe they don't either and I respect that ).
I have expressed my view and values in life with them all the time.
Sometimes, if my view is different than the Church's, I'll explain to them how I see and why.
Therefore, they already know that I disagree with many things our Church are saying and doing. For example, they know that I think the church is not doing what it should be doing which is serving the needy and the poor around us.
One time we were talking about the homeless people. I then said to my younger son (he was 11 at the time) about how I think the Church have not done what should be done... My younger son immediately said, "Mom, you tell them (the Church)!"  "Well, eh...son, it's not that easy... they wouldn't want to listen." 
Just this past Easter, all three of us were so busy in the past week and I thought we all could sleep in on Sunday. But my older son said,"But how could we miss the Easter Sunday Service?"
I then said," I really think that it's meaningless for Christians to gather together endlessly praising God yet not get into action. I mean if they treasure the suffering of Christ that much, they should honour Jesus by loving and serving the most suffered in our society...."
My older son replied, "But I'm young and have not been to that many services, yet. (implied: so I'm still okay to attend one more service  ) (He was being humorous!)
I also said to them, "I want you two to know that God is so much bigger than anyone could imagine, including the Church. Therefore, if later on in life, you find out something about God which is different than how the Church have taught you, that's okay. Maybe the Church have perceived it wrong."
Before I went to the UU Church, I have gone to Starbucks instead of our Church for a couple of weeks. My older son was a little concerned but didn't know how to handle it. So I told him that I'll probably go to another Church for there are too many things that I disagree with this Church. He then asked if he too needs to change Church. Of course I assure him that he can stay at the same Church.
The last 2 weeks I just told them that I'm going to another Church and will come and pick them up. I sensed that my older son still wants me to come back to the same Church for he said sth like, "Oh, Mom, you shouldn't have missed today's service for the Pastor had a special message for moms."
I then told him back something that happened at the UU Church so that he can have a better grasp at what's gone on with my other Church.
But I have not shared with them in details of my change in beliefs. |
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Karen
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 847
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Esther wrote: | | Before I went to the UU Church, I have gone to Starbucks instead of our Church for a couple of weeks. |
Esther, this made me smile. When I was leaving my church, it was a long process. For a few months, I would work in the Sunday school for one service and then walk over to a local coffee shop/bookstore instead of going to the second service. I always felt a little 'naughty' - like I should put on dark glasses and a raincoat or something.
| Quote: | | But I have not shared with them in details of my change in beliefs. |
And I don't think it's necessary for you to do that until you - and they - are ready. I think you mentioned that you are transitioning out of your marriage as well right now, so that's already one thing for the kids to deal with. You'll know when they are really mature enough to understand why you left church when you did.
Meanwhile, I think the most important thing is that they feel secure in their relationship with you (and their dad, if he's still involved in their lives), their friends and the other family members they are close to.
I didn't tell my children the details of my own spiritual journey (similar to your own in many ways, except now I am an atheist) until just about a year ago. They knew I wasn't attending church anymore, but I didn't explain why until I felt comfortable talking to them and I thought they were ready to listen (they're 14 and 16). They were a little shocked, I think, but they took it well and I explained that I wanted them to come to their own conclusions about what they believe. |
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Esther
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 20
Location: BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Karen wrote:
| Quote: | | I always felt a little 'naughty' - like I should put on dark glasses and a raincoat or something. |
HaHa! Yes, I felt in a similar way, too.
Thanks Karen for your response. I tried to search in this blog and the other - "How I come to my belief / dis-belief "- but couldn't find you posted in either one. I was trying to read your story, Karen.
When you have time, maybe you'd like to share your experience with us here in this blog?
I've read a handful of you who said that you were at first a very involved and zealous Christians; then became disagreeing with the Church; then became an agnostic; and now became an atheist.
It seems to be a common pattern. I sort of grasp a little bit of why this is the road to go. But I still want to hear more from you all.
Would you like to explain to me your inner journey and how did it go from you being a Christian and now an atheist?
And Julie Marie, (if you are reading) have you gotten the same observation as I had? How did you feel about this? Can you forseeing yourself going on the same road?
I particularly ask you for I see that you and I are kind of in a very similar point in our faith journey right now.
An additional remark: I know that for Lisa W., NCxian, Marty, Mike C, Bob, and some other Christians (even Jim and Barb), they do not hold views like the conservative Christians do and they still very much a theist or even a Jesus followers and they do not have much debate in their heads for it.
It seems that only the group that came from the very rigid and conservative Christian background have eventually become an atheist, am I right on this observation? Or someone may like to create another poll on this?
What do you all think about this? |
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Julie Marie
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Esther,
Yes, I had the same observations. I could see myself going that way if I didn't see options further left on the bench. Listening to other Cs who are more open and flexible with their ideas helps me remember I don't have to hold an all or nothing stance.
I don't see myself sliding off the bench; I have always seen Gods hand at work in creation, and occasionally in my life, and that is what I'm clinging to now.
I'm so glad to have a place to talk about these things though. Its a lot less scarey to ask what seem to be heretical questions and have someone else pipe up and say that it doesn't seem outlandish to them. |
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Esther
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 20
Location: BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Julie, I'm so glad that you read and reply.
You wrote:
| Quote: | | Listening to other Cs who are more open and flexible with their ideas helps me remember I don't have to hold an all or nothing stance. |
Is that it? Have we been "trained" in the "all or nothing stance" from our FE / Conservative religious background? And that was what made us tend to take things to the extreme?
I understand, Julie, when you said,
| Quote: | | I have always seen Gods hand at work in creation, and occasionally in my life, and that is what I'm clinging to now. |
That is exectly where I am at right now.
But, I'm thinking, didn't Helen, David S, Karen, and JasonB have gone through this period as well and later became agnostic and now an atheist? Could this (realizing God is still real) be just a part of the same journey?
I'm not saying I do or do not want it to happen to me.
I'm just so want to study further into this phenomenon since it's not just happening to one person.
I also want to know how do Helen, David S, Karen, and JasonB think when they interact with all the Jesus followers here who are having a relaxed view about God and the truth? Did it make them want to give it a second thought, or they still think that they have been there and done it?
I hope some of them would be reading and share their thoughts with me. |
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Esther
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 20
Location: BC, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 12:56 am Post subject: |
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I have been doing a lot of catch up reading on this DB tonight.
And I think I now understand a lot more of many of your thoughts than before.
So, if you find my questions too large to answer, it's okay. You've actually expressed many thoughts on other blogs.
They really provoke me into deep thinking, which is so good! |
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Julie Marie
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Is that it? Have we been "trained" in the "all or nothing stance" from our FE / Conservative religious background? And that was what made us tend to take things to the extreme? |
For me,its a combination of nature and nurture. If I'm "in", I''m all 'in'. I have worked so hard to do my best at whatever I'm working on. It took me until my mid thirties to accept that something doesn't have to be perfect to be good. (an overly ambitious stained glass project that wasn't completely "square" at the corners, taught me this....once in the frame, the flaw was not apparent)
I"m also by nature compliant and obedient. Those personality factors...perfectionistic, compliant, and obedient... worked quite well in an FE church.
Thank God for my rebellious mother....parts of her are springing to life in me now, and its for the good. |
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Esther
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 20
Location: BC, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Julie wrote:
| Quote: | | I"m also by nature compliant and obedient. Those personality factors...perfectionistic, compliant, and obedient... worked quite well in an FE church. |
I have been thinking about this as well. Are the people in the FE Chruch a similar type? All the other personality types would not be able to stand it and would leave sooner or later?
And as for the ones like me who grew up in a FE Chruch not by choice, would also come to a point that we think we can not stand it no more and would leave by choice.
This is a good reminder, Julie. Thanks for sharing. |
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