Off The Map Discussion Board for Christians, Atheists and People In-between

[Tom in Sacramento]

I recently heard an extremely well-educated theologian refer to the NIV, with a wink, as the 'Nearly Inerrant Version'. I love it!

He pointed out that there are some difficulties when it comes to the Bible. (I don't think they are the things that most people point to. This was a guy who was confident in the text and in its authority, but he acknowledged that there were some difficult things.)

I think my biggest beef with some of the questions atheists throw up (pardon the pun) is that they are just soooo simplistic in their analysis. And my biggest beef with the theology of much of conservative Christendom is that they are just soooo simplistic in their analysis.

As you work through the process of re-thinkinf faith and the associated committments, here are some quotes that I appreciate. I hope you will, too. Mor; I hope they will inspire you toeven greater re-thinking and re-working. The life of faith is too great a thing to not be continually scrutinizing and evaluating.

Tom

“Unthinking faith is a curious offering to be made to the creator of the human mind.” – John A. Hutchinson, ‘Faith, Reason, and Experience’

“To Love God with our minds does not mean that it is our minds that actually do the loving. Rather, we love God by using our minds. The situation is analogous to a surgeon who loves God with her hands – she uses her hands to express her love for God. Her hands are not doing the loving; she is doing the loving by using her hands.” – Clifford Williams, ‘The Life of the Mind’

“When God offers the Torah to the children of Israel, they do not say, ‘Let us hear what God wants and then we’ll do it.’ Instead, the respond in what seems to be the wrong order: ‘We will do and we will hear’ [Exodus 24:7] … When Rabbi Menahem Mendl Morgenstern of Kotzk read in Exodus, ‘We will do and we will hear,’ he explained that some actions simply cannot be understood (or heard) until they are performed (or done). By doing, we understand.” – Rabbi Lawrence Kushner, ‘Jewish Spirituality: A Brief Introduction for Christians’

“A closed mind is a sign of a hidden doubt.” – Harold DeWolf, ‘A Theology of the Living Church’

“You are not, in fact going to read nothing ... if you don't read good books, you will read bad ones. If you don't go on thinking rationally, you will think irrationally. If you reject aesthetic satisfactions, you will fall into sensual satisfactions" C.S. Lewis, "Learning in War-Time," The Weight of Glory’

Biblically speaking, holiness and apprehension of truth are interdependent. An intelligent person who is immoral at a given point cannot see the truth at that point, be it ever so clear and logical, because their moral commitments are blinding them to it" (Jim Sire, notes from his seminar).

"An appetite for knowledge and beauty exists in the human mind and God makes no appetite in vain. We can therefore pursue knowledge as such and beauty as such, in the sure confidence that by doing so we are either advancing to the vision of God ourselves or indirectly helping others to do so"' (Lewis, "Learning in War-Time").

"So, I urge you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect." Paul to the Romans 12:1-2

[Julie Marie]

[Ir (Helen)]

[Julie Marie]

yeah, and whats more, I'm glad he was too stubborn to change that about himself in the face of his wifes dismay at his occasional party pooperishness.


Whats happening here? All of a sudden I find myself happy to be married to a stubborn, aggressive skeptic


You're right, things are about to get easier around here, for both of us

[Nutrideath]

Tom in Sacramento wrote:

[Julie Marie]

actually, Nutrideath, I find it more logical that humans interpreted their experience with God through the filters of their culture. And the more I read regarding the classical/biblical synthesis and the influence of Hellenic thought on the early christian thinkers such as Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and Augustine the more I come to view this cultural influence as something that we need to carefully re-examine.

Inerrancy boxes our God into human constructs. That is the same thing Islam has done with Allah by saying the Qu'ran was dictated to Mohammed. It allows no growth, and cements us into a theology and forces us to perform mental and moral gymnastics when confronted with behavior that would now be considered obscene.

[Julie Marie]

more to come. Termite man here to inspect damage.

[Nutrideath]

Another reason I believe the Bible is inerrant:

Its prophecies.

Much of the Bible consists of prophecy. In many cases a prophecy was recorded in the OT, and the NT records the instances of its fulfillment. In other cases secular history records for us the fulfillment. So there is both an internal harmony and external collaborative evidence that the prophecy of the Bible is inerrant.

The book of Daniel is my favorite example of prophecy. As an example, take the prophecy found there of the 70 weeks of years (Daniel Chapter 9). Daniel was told that this time period would mark the work of the Messiah. Specifically, the Messiah would appear at the end of 69 weeks, and then would be "cut off" at the half of the 70th week.

Daniel was also given something specific to mark the beginning of the time period - the order of the Persian King Artaxerxes to go forth and rebuild the city of Jerusalem. This in itself was a mini-prophecy, which had its fulfillment and can be confirmed by secular history as well as Biblical (see the first part of the book of Nehemiah). This occurred in 455 BC (the 20th year of Artaxerxes' reign), and so there begins the time period.

If you do the math, the prophecy points to 69 weeks of years, which equals 483 years, after which the Messiah would appear. Counting forward 483 years from 455 BC brings us to 29 CE - the very year Jesus was baptized & began his ministry. (The word "Messiah" means "anointed one." Jesus was anointed when the Holy Spirit came down from heaven upon him at his baptism.)

Thereafter, Jesus' ministry lasted 3 1/2 years (the half of the 70th week). He was then "cut off" in death.

Sorry if that got a little long - but I wanted to illustrate how specific the prophecy was - it was not a vague prediction. (and I left out quite a few of the details...) It was also fulfilled to the letter.

Daniel prophesied many other things, which also have all taken place. One notable one is his prophecy concerning the "King of Greece," which later turned out to be Alexander the Great. (Dan. 8:5-8, 20-22)

As I said before, the entire Bible is full of prophecies, some of which are yet to be fulfilled. But those that have taken place already are not "sortof true," or vague. They hit the nail on the head. Daniel's prophecy pointed out that Alexander would conquer the previous Medo-Persian empire, but then as soon as he got powerful he would be "broken" and replaced by four Grecian kings, not his children. This proved to be four of his Generals, who squabbled for power & divided up the kingdom upon Alexander's early death.

The prophecy found in the Bible could not have been faked, and could not have been predicted by human means. It is in every case correct, complete, and concise in its fulfillment.

To me, this points to God alone as the only possible author.

[Julie Marie]

Nutrideath,

You may have posted this before, but this DB has gotten so large I wouldn't know where to look - do you take the Bible as the literal as well as inerrant word of God?

[Nutrideath]

I believe that much of the Bible is literal, but not all. There are some passages containing symbolic meaning, others that are poetic in nature, and others that are meant to teach using a story, as in the parable of the Good Samaritan.

But I do believe that Jesus was the Son of God, he actually walked the earch, and actually performed the miracles described in the gospel accounts. These things and those like them I do consider to be literal.

[Julie Marie]

Right now I am thinking about the story of Abraham and Issac. I've always had a morbid fascination with it, especially as a child, looking at those pictures of Abraham standing over his son with knife in hand, as portrayed by Bible Story illustrators who left free copies of their books in my pediatrician's office...my mother certainly wasn't able to explain this to my satisfaction. No one has.

The latest traditional reading I had on the story was this: what filial trust! Imagine Issac...why father, where is the ram? What, father, you want me to climb up there? Oh...okay father. Obviously, at his advanced age, Abraham couldn't wrestle a 13 year old onto a table.

The very idea that God asked Abraham to sacrifice Issac flies in the face of everything that is good and holy. I believe one of the rationales used for allowing the Jews to take over Caanan was that they practiced child sacrifice and this was detestable to the Lord. And since we've been taught God doesn't change...how could he ask Abraham to do something detestable? Testing his obedience was the answer I've been given, and I think it stinks.

It is shocking. It should be shocking. I'd have to close my mind to the depravity inherent in telling someone to kill a child just to prove how obediant and trusting you are....Nutrideath, I just can't accept that. That is not a God I am willing to trust or worship.

BUT if I look at the story from a different view -- child sacrifice was practiced in the culture. Perhaps Abraham was about to perform a customary practice when God stepped in and said WAIT!!!!! Don't do that!!!! Here, use the ram, if you must....moving the father of his nation from detestable pagan practices. And if you look further, the psalms say God doesn't want our sacrifices and our burnt offerrings he wants our hearts. God is steadily maturing people spiritually.

A literal inerrant view of the bible says God told Abraham to sacrifice Issac. I don't believe it. Do I believe he couldn't just yank these barbaric people into an entirely new reality, so took a stepwise phased in approach? Seeing how much we all still hate change, I'd say yes. And I say God is still trying to mature us, but if we insist on cementing ourselves into the first century by inerrancy, he's going to have a hard go of it.

[Julie Marie]

oh, and Nutrideath, welcome back! Hope you had a great beach vacation!

[Nutrideath]

Julie Marie, the account of Abraham almost sacrificing his son has many deep points within it. If you’re interested, here’s my take on it:

You’re right – this command to Abraham was shocking. It reminds me of the account in which Jesus told his followers that they must drink of his blood & eat of his flesh. This shocked many so much that they left off following Jesus, but in the end their problem was they didn’t stay with Jesus long enough to understand completely what he meant.

But God did not and was never going to allow Abraham to actually complete the sacrifice. Instead, he provided a different sacrifice.

God’s command to Abraham & Abraham’s subsequent actions served two distinct purposes: 1) It was a test of Abraham’s faith & trust in God; and 2) It served as a prophetic illustration of things to come. I’ll explain:

First of all, notice what Paul wrote about this account to the Hebrews. He wrote this as part of his discussion of faith, and here mentions the faith of Abraham in connection with his almost-sacrifice of Isaac:

[Julie Marie]

Well, Nutri....

I've slid pretty quickly left on the bench. I don't see God testing Abrahams obedience as morally defensible - child sacrifice would count as a sin, and we are told God will never tempt you to sin.

And I don't see it as prophetic. But I'm still up in the air re: my thoughts on what the crucifixion meant. I do know this though: Isaac was not Abrahams only begotten son. Ishmael came first. I do see Paul, who understood the Hebrew texts well, using the similarities to make his points - especially to fellow Jews, a paralell with OT would help legitimize his claim that Jesus was the promised Messiah.

[Ir (Helen)]