Off The Map Discussion Board for Christians, Atheists and People In-between

[Marty]

Marty’s Prism’s

I believe in God. Not because the Bible tells me to and not because someone told me to. I just returned from walking around a glorious lake very near my home and the beauty of the ducks, geese, wildflowers, rabbits, water, mountains – all speak to me – and the word I put to that is God. That word I no doubt learned from others and I have absolutely no problem with those who see the same things and call it by different names – nature, Great Spirit, love, etc. Believing in God is my choice based on emotion/feelings. It is my choice for me and it most often works for me (not always). I have no need to prove this to anyone else or convert them to what I believe.

Am I a Christian? I think that I am – but I know that there are those on this board who define themselves as Christian and would make it clear to me that I am not. If indeed Falwell/Robertson/Swaggert etc are truly Christian – then I guess that I am not – or at least I would not want to be identified with them.

What do I believe about the Bible? I believe that the Bible is the most abused book ever written and that many/most people who preach about it choose the verses that fit their own dogma. I believe that much of that comes from their desire/need to control others. I can choose the versus that support my own belief – and I have a great deal of trouble not just studying the versus that fit my belief system (I certainly wouldn’t call in dogma in my case ) – and then trying to impose them on people who read the Bible differently than I do.

At 18, I became Chairman of the Department of Christian Education in a medium sized Baptist Church. I always had great difficulty understanding King James English (it may as well been French in many cases) – and so I went to the head of our denomination in the area and had him help me select different versions of the Bible for our Church library. There were those in the church that wanted to have me removed from my Chairmanship – and would no doubt been pleased to have me thrown out of the Church.

I care about how what anyone does or does not believe manifests in their lives. I know too many Christians whose manifestations in the world seem to me far from love and making the world a better place. My sense is that many of the Atheists on this board are far more “Christian” than many of those who call themselves Christian.

I am most interested in what brings people together and helping be a part of overcoming what separates us. I created a program called Respectful Dialogue http://members.cox.net/respectfuldialog/ where I am trying to be a catalyst to do that. Many times I find the dialogue on this board extremely helpful and hopeful and that we are starting a movement. Other times I feel that strident and absolute comments are about to destroy all the good that I so much hope will evolve from what Jim and Hemant have started. I then I think that these people may be the necessary sand in the oyster necessary to create the pearl.

I believe that God is a mystery beyond our comprehension and that I am far more concerned with Heaven and Hell in the here and now then the hereafter. I think that if we focus on Heaven and Hell in the here and now – Heaven and Hell in the hereafter will take care of itself – as it too is a mystery. Those who use Heaven and Hell in the hereafter as a manipulative tool I have no time for.

Some of what has been discussed on this board does not speak to me. I have absolutely no interest in whether the earth was literarily made in six days or in a billion years. My life will not be one bit different whichever the case may be – and I think/hope there are far more productive things for me to do with my life.

Right now I am an Interfaith person. Some talk of being involved in Interfaith work (which I applaud). I choose to be active in a variety of churches regularly – and others that I feel I can still learn from. I am a Quaker (unprogrammed) and am particularly comfortable with their belief in the direct connection to God and their belief that there is “that of God in everyone”. They have no paid staff and no hierarchy. Everyone is a total equal the moment they walk in the door. No dogma, no hypocrisy. Homosexuals are active in the leadership of the group. My wife and I most often attend a local Presbyterian Church where I was/am drawn to the minister because of his Interfaith work (really respecting and bringing in people of other beliefs) and his ability to make the lesson meaningful to me. Although I am not Catholic, I have somehow been drawn into being very involved in the Catholic Church. I co-chaired a couple of major fundraisers for Casa de Maria http://www.lacasademaria.org/ a wonderful retreat grounds – led by a group of former nuns (Immaculate Heart Community). I attend Saint Anthony’s Community (on the grounds of the former Saint Anthony’s Seminary – the most known place where petophialia was identified) where they have a great priest and where the laity (including women) lead the church. I am a part of “Voice of the Faithful” http://www.votfsba.org/ a group of Catholic laity originally formed to assure that there could never again be petophia in the Church and then to bring about fundamental change in the Catholic Church.

You can also find out more about me from my two previous posts in this section: What Marty Believes and Discernment.

[Marty]

Marty's Prism's:

I have posted my prism's (prejudices) going into hearing Bishop Spohn at:

http://off-the-map.org/ebayatheist/viewtopic.php?t=164

I will now try to get into reporting on his talk.

[TXatheist]

Marty,
I have two personal questions. You said"I believe that God is a mystery beyond our comprehension"

If god is beyond your comprehension then how can you admire something you can't comprehend? If god is out there then why do you try to bring him down to the personal level? I don't understand that.

#2. How do you justify helping the Catholic Church when they are covering up the molestation problem? That's one reason I despise the catholic church though I've heard one response that I can understand why someone remains catholic, not that I find it reasonable but at least understand why they remain catholic.

[Marty]

TxAtheist

I am not interested in your first question. I recognize it does meet your rational test - and so be it.

Realitive to your second question on the Catholic Church - I try to support and help enable positive change. I think that there are elements within the Catholic Church that are bringing about tremendous positive change and I honor and support them.

The Immaculate Heart Nuns renounced their vows, gave up the only jobs that they had ever had, gave up their incomes, gave up their housing to stand up for what they believed and up to Cardinal McIntyre and the Vatican. A great read is "Witness to Integrity" by Anita Caspary - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0814627706/sr=1-1/qid=1146157314/ref=sr_1_1/102-1004279-2820900?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books

I got to know Anita and almost wound up helping her write the follow on book to this one. She is a woman of emmense courage.

The "Voice of the Faithful" is playing a major role in seeing that the concerns you state never happen again and that fundamental change is brought about in the Catholic Church. I frankly don't understand why they don't all leave the Catholic Church and start their own church - but I honor them for their courage and determination to bring about major change within the church. I believe that the changes that have been brought about in the Catholic Church relative to petophia that they may have overdone it. Some really great Catholic Priests have been unfairly tarnished with the backlash from this. An 88 year old priest who was the very beloved Senior Pastor of the Santa Barbara Mission has dedicated the rest of his life to Interfaith work. I also can assure you that Voice of the Faithful is carefully monitoring and holding the accountable (as best they can) the Bishops who have covered up and moved the bad priests around. If you really want to learn more about what they are doing - bounce around the VOTF website.

Saint Anthony's Community is a Catholic Church that has gone through major termoil, spits, pain, etc. - but what is left is a very extraordinary group of laity and priest. For instance - the Los Angeles Archdiosce sent down a list of new edicts a couple of years ago. The Priest spoke on them from the pulpit, passed out copies to all parishioners, met with the parishioners over a few months to review them, the parishioners and priest decided that they were fine they way they had been, and the priest so announced at a Sunday mass.

Athough I am not a Catholic - I have GREAT respect for all of this.

[TXatheist]

Thanks for answering and choosing not to answer for your own personal reasons. I'm listening and biting my tongue on the Catholic church:)