Off The Map Discussion Board for Christians, Atheists and People In-between

Eliza · Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 800 Location: Seattle WA

shortstopjpc or anyone who can answer this - could you please enlighten me to something I've been wondering about? I'm serious about this question. Where does Jesus teach that every person is a sinner, every day & in many ways - and what does he teach are 'everyday' sins? (Not the big stuff, like adultery or murder.) I haven't been reading with this question in mind, so right now am just thinking of:

(1) the story of the adulterous woman in John 8 ("Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" - but that story ends with Jesus saying "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more" - which seems to me like it would be referring to a 'major' sin like adultery)

(2) Matthew 5 & 6, which does set a pretty high bar (don't be angry with another person & call him "Fool", don't look at a woman with lustful intent, if your right eye causes you to sin, etc) but also gives rules that many Christians (as far as I can tell) don't follow and don't apparently consider sins (not an iota will pass from the [Jewish] Law, don't divorce a woman except for sexual immorality and don't marry a divorced woman, don't take any oath at all).

I ask because I've certainly heard/read other Christians also say the same type of thing about their own daily behavior/actions as shortstopjpc did a page back in this discussion:
"I am just as immoral as you on any given day, but man is it convicting.
I fail everyday.
I sin everyday
I say things I wish I could take back.
I hurt when someone misreads me.
And I love people, and it doesnt come naturally."

Yet it's not clear to me where this degree of self-flagellation (if I may call it that...it's late, & I'm not coming up with a better term, no offense meant) comes from in Jesus's teachings. He seemed like a more understanding, uplifting, forgiving type than this...or that's what I took away, in my readings. While he had high expectations of people's behavior, he also didn't seem to be expecting perfection...? So, please, any leads would help.

(Paul's teachings, yes - I see it there. And if that's the place it comes from, then my next question is: why do Paul's teachings play such an important role - maybe even more so than Jesus's teachings, in my humble opinion as an "outside observer"? As someone said a while back, it's not "Paulianity"...!)

isaone · Joined: 06 May 2006 Posts: 354 Location: Nashville

Shortstopjpc I am coming to this discussion late so I will not even try to addres most of the thousands of words that have been written. I have one simple observation from your last post.

You state:

shortstopjpc · Joined: 21 Apr 2006 Posts: 76 Location: Yreka not Eureka

I dont understand God.... I cannot understand fully a God as complex as God. The trinity baffles my mind, but somehow, it makes sense. It is my passion in life to gain more understanding of God by His word. And each day that passes I understand more about my Father in heaven. If I did not have a resource for this understanding (Holy Bible) I would be even further from a deeper understanding, or I would need a burning bush.

For me to say that I understand God would be foolish, and an incorrect statement. So, to make myself more clear, and to keep the post under a thousand words, I do not fully understand God, but am attempting daily to understand more.

What I do know about God by reading his words and applying them to my life, continues to have positive affects in my life, and the lives of others. Some would argue that reading a self help book when applied could improve life and the lives of others. That would be a true statement. But I believe the greatest self help book ever written, was written by God. Please forgive the lack of explanation the first time. There will be other faults to come. jC faulty

shortstopjpc · Joined: 21 Apr 2006 Posts: 76 Location: Yreka not Eureka

Eliza, I need more time to answer your question and my boys are needing some dad time, so, please check back soon. Have a good Holiday, and be safe. jC

Kari · Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 12

In response to Eliza's question:
What amazes me is how God chose to use a man like Saul/Paul, the biggest oppressor to the followers of Jesus. I guess that shows how wide God's grace is.

A few weeks ago our Pastor mentioned the biggest sin that got the Israelites in trouble....grumbling. Here you have God's unmerited favor, and you're getting sick and tired of the same food in the desert and start complaining.

Although you asked for scripture references, I wanted to add a personal experience. Before making a decision to seek first His Kingdom and follow Christ, I led my own life. I guess you could say I was very anxious. I had no peace compared to what I have now. I fail at times, I know. But I am drawn to ask forgiveness and I receive it. I know when I am in His will because I have the Holy Spirit in me, and I feel confirmation of it. That's all it is. Leading a life pleasing to Him is a by-product of having a relationship with Him.

If you do not have a relationship with the Lord you don't consult Him on anything, you are in control. The whole thing is that from the very beginning of time as we know it, the Lord's plan is to make a way for you to be in fellowship with Him. And he isn't forceful because it's your decision. I for one recommend it!

Eliza · Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 800 Location: Seattle WA

Kari,
I'm glad that you have found peace in your relationship with God. It sounds like a wonderful change to your life, compared with before.

Regarding the reference to grumbling that your pastor was talking about - when the Israelites were in the desert - I take it that's from Numbers 11-21, starting with "And the people complained in the hearing of the Lord about their misfortune" and ending with the bronze serpent?

I ask because I heard a sermon about complaining, based on the story of the bronze serpent (& the Israelites in the desert), so that sounds similar. I heard that sermon when I went to a church service in my neighborhood this spring (stemming from my involvement at the off-the-map/ebay atheist site). It was told as a springboard to an uplifting (yet gently chastizing) message that we should not complain, we should be grateful for what we are given. It went over pretty well among the congregation, it seemed.

And, yet, when I got home and actually read Numbers 11-21, I was quite troubled by what was there - and what I thought the pastor who gave the sermon I'd heard had left out. You can certainly stop reading here if you don't care to read my summary and interpretation of Numbers 11-21, and 31...

The Israelites weren't just grumbling about not having tasty food - they had been in the desert for several months and, at least at times, had no water (Numbers 20:2). And I have a hard time taking away the lesson that God just chastizing them for grumbling and was teaching them a lesson: He was killing them!

He "struck down the people [who ate fowl meat, greedily, after he provided a flock of quail] with a great plague" & they were buried there (Num. 11:33). When Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses, God makes Miriam leprous (then they both die later for having spoken out). When men gave a "bad report" about land Moses sent them to spy on, they "died by a plague before the Lord" (Num. 14:37). Then, because they haven't obeyed the Lord, the Israelites get defeated in battle.

Then, God takes the opportunity to tell them that when they do get to where they are going: they need to make a sacrifice of meat, "to make a pleasing aroma to the Lord", and He gives exact quantities of oil and fine flour and wine to be mixed in with it, and runs through the various types of animals they could sacrifice. One's mouth waters, reading it. (Remember, these people are hungry, and thirsty, and have no meat to eat, and have been watching their companions die left and right, and have just been through battle.)

When men question Moses (and thus God) for having brought them into the desert, "the earth opened...and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah..and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly" (Num. 16:32-33). Israelites fled, "And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men offering the incense" (Num. 16:35).

Then, when people "grumble" that Moses has "killed the people of the Lord", the Lord sends a plague - and "those who died in the plague were 14,700, besides those who died in the affair of Korah" (Num. 16:49). Then he warns the senior men not to let "the rebels" grumble or they'll die, then gives a few more pages of rules and laws, including the laws for purification. Then Miriam and Aaron die.

Then "the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. And the people came to Moses and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you" (Num. 21:6-7). And that's when God tells Moses to make a statue of a bronze serpent, so that anyone who's bitten can look at it and live. And the only part of all of this that was said in the sermon I heard, was that the Israelites were complaining and ungrateful, and God may have sent some snakes but he also provided a way for them to be saved from serpent bites. So we need to love and trust in God, and not complain.

Wow. I have to tell you, I have a really hard time reading Numbers 11-21 and seeing a loving God, or even a God who - truth be told - is doing anything but browbeating his people into obeying his every word, no matter how little sense it seems to make to them at the time (or, to some of us now centuries later). This sounds like a selfish God - one who is concerned with the exact details of the fabulous sacrifice with a "pleasing aroma" he will be getting down the road, while his people are truly suffering. Maybe some of it was grumbling - boring, plain food for months on end - but in other places it says they had no water, and that food he did send them (quail) they were not to eat. I guess I can only just barely imagine how people can read this and see it as evidence of the glory of God, and his infinite (well, OK, not infinite) patience with his troublesome, quarreling chosen people...but that's a stretch of the imagination for me. Can you see why this all would trouble me?

And, as a closing note, Numbers 31 is where God tells Moses and his people to slaughter the Midianites, and Moses reminds them to "kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves" (Num. 31:17-18 ) - after which they ritually purify themselves and give a portion of the loot to the priests as the tribute to God. Even if war against the Midianites were necessary, *how* can I possibly read this and not be troubled by the descriptions of Moses, as described here, as murderer, pimp/procurer, and plunderer? And, even worse, because God told him to? It just makes me shudder....

So, I'm sorry to drag all that out, but I'm giving you my honest, unvarnished impression of the words, story, and meaning I read in the part of the Bible that I heard used to teach about grumbling and complaining. What I take away is so very, very different from what the pastor I heard speak relayed to the congregation. And that part, too, I found troubling...

Do you read these sections and take away a more positive message? Can you tell me how?

JaysonB · Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 296 Location: Detroit, MI

Eliza · Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 800 Location: Seattle WA

One more hour until fireworks here - hope everyone is having a great Fourth!

shortstopjpc · Joined: 21 Apr 2006 Posts: 76 Location: Yreka not Eureka

Jayson, I dont have $800 dollars right now. I will see if we can come up with something for you. I dont know what I am praying for but I will ask that your situation is resolved. If you dont mind the men of our small church will be praying for your situation, and whatever it is, It is my prayer that you will find peace in the weeks to come. jC

Keith · Joined: 04 May 2006 Posts: 187

Shortstop,

Good to see you back Smile

. A few weeks ago, I wrote the following in response to your post in which you told Karen that you loved her:

"Shortstop,

As a fellow Christian, let me encourage you to be careful throwing around the word, "love." Love is a major commitment ... and if you're going to say it, I want to see you sticking with Karen and others on this board and doing a little listening. It's usually better to love with action before you throw out the word, but since you've led with the word, I expect to see action to follow it up. If you stop posting or refuse to listen, you will have done neither Karen, nor your Savior, any favors.

... by the way ... it's good to hear what happiness Jesus has brought to your life ... I wish you the best"

I apologize for accusing you of throwing around the word love. I am sorry. It clearly hurt your feelings - though this was not my intention, I regret that my words caused you hurt. Again, I am sorry.

You said, "As for Jayson, back from apathy and ready for more bludgeoning. You are a brave one. Is that what it takes my friend?, do I need to send you money?. Are you not provided for?. Did you eat today? are we talking about a car payment here?. Are you borrowing your computer?. What is your hardship?. I mean this from the depth of my heart. If you my friend are truly in need, I will pray that someone will see your hardship, and come to your aid. Jayson would you like for the small mens group I attend to come up with a collection for your hardship?. We will. "

If you will read some more of the other threads, you may gain insight into some of the reasons why Jayson is willing to accept your financial gift. I now know that you do not throw around words lightly, and I appreciate the gravity of the commitment you have made to Jayson in the words, "we will." You are to be commended. Please do have your men's group take up a collection for Jayson in addition to praying for him. Your willingness to offer this is greatly appreciated and admired by me, and I am sure many others as well. Thanks for your willingness to go above and beyond the call of the typical online relationship. I look forward to hearing about your giving of this gift, and the benefit Jayson receives as a result.

As always, thanks for posting, Shortstop ... God bless

shortstopjpc · Joined: 21 Apr 2006 Posts: 76 Location: Yreka not Eureka

Keith, in the day and age we live in I could see where you would have your gaurd up. You are right, there are very few that understand the greatest of these.

Gods youth group that he let me borrow is always willing to help those out in need, and I am hoping they will come up with some good ideas to help in Jaysons situation. Only once since I have been in the ministry have we passed the hat during youth group, just because the teens are lucky to have a few bucks in their pockets. But that one night we did, we had taken an offering for the BADD association. BADD stands for Born Again and Delivered Disciples. It is powerful to watch what this group does. They travel around using street dance as their talent. They teach the teens and small children dance moves, and give their personal testimonies. The dance team is made up of teens who have struggled in gangs, selling drugs, rebellious against their family, and all of the above. These teens dont even have to open up their mouth and you can tell something awesome has happened.

Anyway, the teens in the youth group saw the same thing I did, so when we passed the hat, I was surprised to see the amount that was given by these teens. But the thing that brought tears to my eyes, was at the very bottom of the basket, was a necklace. It was beaded and there was a note attached that stated, "this is all I have, I hope someone can use it". Leave it to a teen, to define what love is.

So to all, I hope you value today, we only get one crack at it. jC

Keith · Joined: 04 May 2006 Posts: 187

Shortstop,

Thank you for the reply.

You said, "You are right, there are very few that understand the greatest of these."

I am not sure what you are talking about here, but I do want to be politely clear that I have said nothing even resembling the statement, "there are very few that understand the greatest of these."

It was great to hear about the youth group you are borrowing. They sound like some great kids and it seems that a number of lives are benefitting as a result of your group.

You said, "Jayson would you like for the small mens group I attend to come up with a collection for your hardship?. We will."

Then you said, "I am hoping they will come up with some good ideas to help in Jaysons situation. Only once since I have been in the ministry have we passed the hat during youth group, just because the teens are lucky to have a few bucks in their pockets. "

I am confident that you are an honest man who keeps his word. I just want to politely note that you promised Jayson a collection if he desired it, not just ideas. I am confident that you will keep your word and provide this collection, perhaps along with prayers and helpful ideas. You are not the kind of man who throws words around - and I appreciate that about you.

Thanks, as always, Shortstop ... God bless

shortstopjpc · Joined: 21 Apr 2006 Posts: 76 Location: Yreka not Eureka

an idea would suck unless it was applied and tried. I believe the same way about the Word of God.

Our church is so small and diverse that the majority of our congregation needs more help then they can sometimes give. So, sometimes we have to ask everybody when a situation arises, or someone comes into hardship, that includes our wonderful youth group, which consists mostly of teens whose parents dont attend church. We as a body will do everything we can with what we have, and we will pray for above and beyond what we expected.

Just a thought, but if there are is anyone on this site Christian/non or undecided that have a desire to join us in this effort to help. Please join us. He needs more then we can give at this time, and fast. Perhaps this is one area we could all agree on. jC

Kari · Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 12

Eliza,
I just now read your response and it will take time to delve into it. I have some things to do today and tomorrow but will try to respond in a timely fashion!

shortstopjpc · Joined: 21 Apr 2006 Posts: 76 Location: Yreka not Eureka

Oh Keith, yeah I was talking about THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE.... Between the teachings of Jesus the Christ, and a marriage, I have come to find that saying the word Love is way different then putting it into action. Jesus said I did not come to be served, but to serve. I think where the Body of Christ goes desperately wrong is when we get comfortable in the Christian Ghetto, inside four walls on Sunday, and forget we need to be serving,,,,,,,,, EVERYBODY.. not just meals at the potluck after church.

I am so fortunate to attend a church where the Pastor has the serve attitude, and is actually doing something to prove it. We dont like to play church. Yeah, so, sorry for the lack of clarification. jC