Off The Map Discussion Board for Christians, Atheists and People In-between

[cautiousmaniac]

Sorry for the random question, but I was just thinking...

Jesus dies on Good Friday.

Is dead for three days.

And then comes back on Easter Sunday.

This sequence of events seems to not make mathematical sense to me. Three days from Friday should be...Monday, right? Is Easter celebrated on Sunday just to fit it into the worship schedule more easily? Sorta like...Sunday is Easter (observed) but Monday is really Easter?

As this is a random question, I of course expect only random answers. Bonus points for answers that use Time Cube. But only because Time Cube is very very random.

(also why did I never ask this before?!?!)

[Stephan]

Here's how it was explained to me.

It says he rose "on the third day."

Friday was the first day. Saturday was the second day. Sunday was the third day.

It also says he rose "on the first day of the week," which is, of course, Sunday.

[David S]

It's an interesting "sacrifice" that gets back what it gave up a few days eariler plus gets heaven.

Some have quipped that Judas' part in the whole thing seems more of a sacrifice than Jesus' was.

[Stephan]

I like how Judas was portrayed in "Jesus Christ Superstar". He started as a true believer, but was concerned that Jesus was getting out of control. It explored Judas' motives in an interesting way.

[tlindholtz]

Since maniac was asking a "random question" I would like to be the first to give a random answer.

Thirty-six feet, 8,000 pounds, warm-blooded, live birth, protected species.

Ah, I love it. My grandson and I have a game we play.
Anthony: Poppie, I have a question.
Tom: Great, I have an answer. Which do you want first, the question or the answer?
A: The answer.
T: [Some line of nonsense as above]
A: [He makes up some nonsense question in response.]

But to be serious, personally I put this into the same category as I do that question we kicked around on the various geneologies of Jesus. Namely, that these documents were written by people who did not share our modern, Western, anal-retentive obsession with "scientific" accuracy. Other sources of potential confusion stem from knowing for certain which year Jesus death occured in (affects the sequence of events in the Passover), differences in the way Jews measured time (sunset to sunset).

[Siamang]

[RickLinTX]

I can answer this one.

Since the Bible is literature written in human language, it can be evaluated by use of linguistics, that branch of science which studies human language.

Among many features identified in the languages in which the Bible is written is metonymy, the use of a single characteristic to identify a more complex entity - popularly understood as "the parts represent the whole".

e.g., Genesis uses "evening and morning", parts of a day, to represent a whole day.

We do it too. "I like your wheels" means "I like your whole car", "I'm gonna whoop your a$$" means "I am going to do damage to all of your body" etc. etc.

This specific form of metonymy is called synecdoche and is quite commonly understood by linguistic scientists. Though it is often missed by those (believers or not) who approach scripture in a letterist way, there are times when figures of speech are the way to identify the natural meaning of the text.

As in Genesis, the parts of a day in Matt 12:40 are not meant to be understood as 72 continuous hours - that would be to impose a scientific approach foreign to a pre-scientific text.

Rather, the parts are representing the whole - i.e., 3 days 3 nights = three days. Christ was buried before sundown on Friday. Those last few minutes of Friday are parts of the day that represent the whole day. Ditto the waking hours of Sunday. Fri Sat Sun = 3 days.

Bear in mind that this *is* an explanation from the *science* of linguistics. And you can look linguistics, metonymy, and synecdoche up on wikipedia.

The explanation may not at all convince you, but this isn't just a case of believers scrambling to come up with some kind of solution no matter how nutty.

A different but related issue is when scripture [or we] refer to the sun rising or setting. This is "phenomenological language" and does not demand that we ascribe to the speaker a belief that the sun orbits around the earth. The sun does not rise or set; the earth rotates. We all know that but our language retains phenomenological language to describe what we see.

Jim and Lisa in particular will recognize the phenomenological language of the Puget Sound, where the words "The mountain is out today" doesn't mean that people think Rainier moves in and out; it means that the sky is clear and you can see Rainier today. Am I right on that, Jim and Lisa?

[Siamang]

Likewise, when the bible said that Noah had the animals in the ark for a year, it was really just two dogs and a chicken over a long weekend.


And it rained for 40 minutes, tops.

[David S]

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth’" (Matthew 12:40).

"But the LORD provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was inside the fish three days and three nights." (Jonah 1:17)

So then was Jonah really only in the fish for barely a day and half too?

And like Jonah was Jesus really alive the whole time?

It's such a strange comparison.

[Eliza]

Siamang: ohmigod you crack me up!!!

RickLinTX: Impressive knowledge and explanation of linguistics!! I can answer from Seattle - when the sky is clear we do indeed say "the mountain is out today" as part of the phenomenological language of the Puget Sound, to mean that you can see Mt. Rainier, knowing well that the mountain isn't actually moving in and out of the sky, as in your example.

On such days we also may cry "AAAAHHH I'm being blinded!! What's that big yellow thing in the sky!!!"

...and then we remember that people from other places have told us about this thing called the sun.

[Cully]

Well, of course Siamang. The bible is a piece of poetic literature and wasn't meant to be taken literally. The intended audience of the bible didn't demand accuracy and precision the way we do today.

Methuselah was 24. Jesus was born in a parking lot outside a Howard Johnson. Samson only killed three guys with the jawbone of that ass, but he gave two others a right good smacking. King Cyrus didn't put Daniel in a lion's den so much as he made him share a travel cage with a couple tea-cup poodles. Nebuchadnezzar just made Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego stand in the sun for a couple hours. (This is fun!)

Seriously... this one I can overlook. How many times in your life have you said something along the lines of "Is that 2 days counting today?" There are bigger questions to be asked of the gospels. How long was Jesus' ministry? (Either 3 years, or 1, depending on which gospel you read.) What happened at the last supper? (either a communal meal or a ceremonial foot washing... again, depending.) When Jesus "became the son of God? (either at birth, at his baptism, or at the beginning of time.) Who carried the cross? (Simon or Jesus.) What were Jesus last words? (3 out of 4 gospels report something different.) Who went to Jesus tomb? (Mary Magdalene is agreed on by all, but each gospel lists a different number of women with her.) What was the state of Jesus tomb when they arrived? (Sometimes there's one angel, sometimes two. Sometimes he's inside, sometimes outside. Sometimes the stone has already been moved, other times the women witness it... etc.)

I've read many many attempts by various writers to "harmonize" the events in the gospels. (Both the supper and the foot washing occurred, Matthew, Mark and Luke focussed on the supper, John chose to report the foot washing. etc. etc. etc.) What I don't get is why they disagree on so many important points. These are supposed to be a biography of the most important man to have ever lived! (In the Christian view at least.) Shouldn't something as simple as the last words he uttered before dying have been preserved accurately? I can't imagine Matthew leaving the field before Jesus died, thus missing the last words. Or Mark saying to himself... "well, I know Jesus ACTUAL final words were 'It is finished.' But I'll let John use THOSE for his book, it fits his theme better. I'll use 'God, why has thou forsaken me.' After all he said that too."

With a pretty certain assurance of accuracy I can find out what Abraham Lincoln had for breakfast on the day he died (one egg, and one cup of coffee) but I can't with any accuracy find out much of anything about the life of the man who is supposed to have saved me from eternal damnation.

[RickLinTX]

So the principle at work is: when someone offers an explanation, mock them. Don't ask questions; don't seek to understand what life looks like from their perspective. Make fun of them.

Thanks everyone.

[David S]

[Cully]

Rick-- I'm truly sorry if I offended you. There have been a number of questions along these lines raised in this forum and we always get the same series of non-answers. (Poetic literature, accuracy is a modern notion, etc.) This is the simplest, most direct question possible... Bible says three days, and three nights... the celebration says two (maybe three) days and two nights. What's the deal? What we get in response is the usual series of semantics that has the outward polish of an answer but in truth ignores the question. It's frustrating. I just wanted to point out how far this could be taken. I didn't intend it maliciously.

[Larry N Moore]