Off The Map Discussion Board for Christians, Atheists and People In-between

[luckycanuck]

This is my first post in this community. I joined because the subject of Christian/Atheist relations is one of acute interest to me right now.

I am in the early stages of studying to be an Anglican Priest. My faith means a great deal to me, but I have never had any difficulty reconciling it with the discoveries made by modern science.

What has posed much more of a challenge recently is the fact that my last girlfriend is an atheist. She was raised Roman Catholic, and seemed to have acquired a negative view of religion during her childhood. During the time she was with me, I think her eyes were opened to the fact that not all Christianity is what she remembered.

She regularly came to church with me and very much enjoyed being a part of the parish community, and even though she didn't participate the rituals, she was very supportive of me as I tested my vocation.

I know the lengths she went through to be with me, and I know she wanted to be a part of the ministry I might some day take up, but I can't pretend that our "faith gap" didn't weigh on my mind. As much as she supported what I was trying to do, I felt like some of the most sacred moments in my life were moments that I couldn't really share with her. I worried that she didn't quite understand what my faith means to me, and I never really found out what my faith means to her.

At the moment we have split up. She still loves me, and feels that we are meant to be together (ironic, I thought, that she doesn't believe in God, but does have a sense of providence.) She feels that her atheism could actually help me to be a better priest. (She may have made me more tolerant, and she has certainly challenged me to think about my faith.) For my part, I know that what we had together doesn't come along every day, and I do want to find a way to work things out.

At times I feel I am making too much of this, at times I feel I have been proud by hoping that she would come around to seeing things my way. I know I can't ask her to believe something, and I certainly can't talk her into it. That would be both arrogant and futile. Still, being married to a clergyman is difficult for anyone (sometimes I think maybe the Catholics are onto something when they speak about priestly celibacy) and I know it would be that much harder for an atheist who didn't share the theological foundations that mean so much to me.

If I pursue this through to ordination, I would need her to be a part of it. I want my faith to mean something to her, even if she doesn't believe what I say in the creed. The question of whether or not this is possible for us seems to be constantly in my mind.

We have decided to spend some time apart to sort out how we feel, and I find myself challenged to consider what it means to be a part of the Christian faith. Can she be a part of it without believing in the God I know? Does the Spirit sometimes work through those with no faith?

If anyone has any thoughts or experience on this matter I would like to hear about it.

Kind regards,
Billy

[Ir (Helen)]

Hi Billy,

Welcome to the Off The Map Discussion Board, by the way.

I can't really imagine your denomination would be thrilled about a priest married to an atheist. Have you investigated that?

I think it would be unfair to put an atheist in the position of being married to a priest even if the denomination was fine with it (which I think is unlikely). You would be immersing her in a community of people who don't understand her. And she'd be supposed to be supporting you in all of your role when I don't really see how that's possible, given that she can't support your beliefs.

If the two of you really want to be together then why not consider a different career?

Or, if you are intent on being a priest, then I think it's best not to put an atheist in the position of being part of that by getting married to her.

I was a Christian married to an atheist for several years and it was hard - and I was never in full-time ministry or anything close to that.

I think the best thing would be if she realizes "Hey, being a priest's wife really couldn't work for me". Then that particular option will be off the table.

[luckycanuck]

Helen,

I've spoken to a number of my clergy friends, and some of them think it would be a problem, and some don't, though all think it would be a challenge. There is no rule about who a priest can marry, but I am fully aware of the fact that being married to an atheist would make for an additional challenge.

She seems quite happy to be involved in my community, and doesn't see the difference in our faith backgrounds as something that is unworkable. Overall, she doesn't see being with a priest as a position she is unwilling to be in.

That said, I am very aware of the necessity that we both fully understand the challenges that would lie ahead if we were to be together. I know we will both have to reflect on what it would require of us.

As for giving up on my vocation, if I do that it would be because I am not being called to it, not because I wanted a career that was more convenient. I have a career at the moment, and I have tried and failed in the past to talk myself out of what I am now investigating.

Billy

[Siamang]

I feel so honored that you found this discussion and you have decided to take part in it. I'm constantly impressed with the quality of this ongoing discussion... there isn't anything else like it that I've found anywhere.

I have an impression that the Anglican Church, especially the Church in Australia would be so different from the dominant conservative Protestant Christian traditions in America. I know of the Anglicans here in America from their bold and courageous stance regarding the ordination of gay clergy (and of course the controversy that that stance has generated.)

I'm also aware of a wonderful letter to the editor from a priest in New Zealand that blew my socks off by his passionate and forceful embracing of diversity of beliefs... something that is sorely lacking in public religious voices here in America. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=301&objectid=10424908 Perhaps there's something in the worlds down under that is more encouraging of a pluralistic approach to belief. Perhaps it's part and parcel of the Anglican tradition.

I know the dominant voices in America are so different, that I'd like to get a better sense of the religious culture within your tradition. I have a sense that your odds are better down there than they would be here!



My problem in coming at your question is that I'm an atheist. And as such, I weigh the options different from the way a person of faith might. I'll get right out in front of the question and say I reckon the love of a good woman as worth more than just about anything in this world. And I reckon the requirements of a life in the priesthood somewhat less.

Now this is my perspective, and it's not likely to be yours. But it may be analogous to hers. She may be like me and rate earthly love to be very, very special indeed, and how can a (nonexistant?) god interfere, or why should we let it?


Now, assuming that you do go with your current calling, and you decide to wed. She would need to be an extremely thoughtful woman to be able to live in the microcosmic world of a parish, surrounded by the faithful and be okay with that. You noted her hostility to the faith she was rasied in. It would take, I think, a good deal of maturity, humility and grace and tact, as well as a hearty dose of philosophical openness to live in that world and not be an idological adversary.

But this is hardly new. Interfaith marriages exist all over the world, this is no different, although one of the belief systems is becoming more openly recognized. Imagine a priest married to a Jew. What wonderful theological positions inform their dinner discussions!

As an atheist, I often think that among the most pertinent questions to the faithful must be the issues of doubt and skepticism. I often get the impression that these issues get (purposefully) ignored by clergy, as if mere acknowlegement, let alone discussion, would open the pandora's box of apostacy.

Switching hats for a second, and presuming the existence of God, this is an extremely important issue for the faithful and those coming to faith. To be able to minister to those needs, with honesty and perspective and a generosity of thoughtful consideration would be a powerful gift. To do it deeply and without trivializing or condescending to the questions would take a commitment to respect and an intellectual honesty.

Welcome, and please continue to be part of this discussion. So many thoughtful questions!

[luckycanuck]

Siamang,

I appreciate your thoughts very much. Indeed, I came here specifically because I knew I would hear from those who share my faith and those who don't. I am working things out on my own, but the added perspectives of someone who looks at things differently is most welcome at this stage.

As it happens, I am from the liberal Anglo-catholic wing of Anglicanism. In Australia, that puts me at odds with my home diocese. The local Anglican leadership is evangelical in its approach to liturgy, and conservative on many of the key pastoral issues. I am by no means on a liberal crusade, but I have no objection to the ordination of women or homosexuals, and as a result, if I am to pursue ordination it will have to be in another diocese.

On the subject at hand, I took special notice of one point you made.

[Keith]

Billy,

Welcome ... thanks for posting. I am a minister who is married, so some of your experiences may parallel my experience, and some may not.

Let me give two examples that may or may not relate:

1. My wife does not enjoy sports and I love them. Usually this is okay becaus sports aren't that big a deal. However, more than one argument has been triggered by me watching too much NFL on TV or me playing one more basketball game and getting home late, etc. Sports is a minor part of my life, and yet I still have trouble keeping it from disrupting my ability to show love to my wife. If you and your wife are not on the same page in this major part of your life - your relationship with God - you will probably see it become a regular source of conflict during your marriage.

2. Guys who enter the ministry sometimes suffer from a Savior-complex (ironically enough), where we think we can save anyone. I suffer from this odd blend of arrogance & compassion. You need to answer this honesly - no need to reply, just you and your God and your conscience - is part of your attraction to her the challenge she represents? The challenge of loving a woman who currently wants no relationship with God until she is won over by you and your faith seems to me like it would be the ultimate conquest. Are you attracted to her because of the conquest that winning her would be? (again, that's for you and your God and your conscience to sort out - I'm just trying to be helpful) ... There will be times in your ministry when you will have had enough challenges when you walk through the door each evening, and you will prefer someone who can remind why you put yourself through it.

Most of all, Billy, thanks for sharing this. If what I've said is helpful, great. If not, feel free to ignore it. Regardless of what happens, good luck in your ministry and in your relationship with this special girl. Thank you.

[Ir (Helen)]

Billy, I would be very interested to hear your girlfriend's comments. Would you be willing to tell her about this discussion?

I can't help wondering if she is fully aware you have thoughts like this:

[Karen]

Billy,

I am a former Christian, turned atheist about 5 years ago. My husband is still an evangelical Christian.

It's very, very, very difficult to hold a marriage together between two people coming from such completely opposite paradigms. I think the only reason we have been able to do it is because we are very devoted to each other and our kids, and I was a Christian for many years and understand and empathize with my husband's mindset (something your wife would not be able to do). But my situation certainly is not an ideal one.

I would never say it can't be done, but the material conflicts over things like celebrating holidays, raising children and attending services are trivial compared to the dichotomy between two core personal outlooks that are so different.

I've been married 24 years and believe me, marriage is tough enough even if you're both looking at the world from the same starting point. I wouldn't recommend starting out in marriage with such a huge handicap right off the bat.

[Siamang]

[NCxian]

I'm not sure I have any useful thoughts about the particular Christian/atheist thing. I would second what Helen has said about talking upfront about child rearing, and would suggest that if you were completely in agreement about religion. I would say that, in my marriage, the toughest things to work through have been related to how to raise children.

My understanding is that many clergypeople find it difficult to maintain a separate space for the family, as compared to their religious community. That is, they find they are expected to be "on" 24/7. That will result in the clergyperson's spouse being "on" for child care 24/7. Nothing will start a fight quicker in my house than one of us (me) perceiving that I am getting much more than my share of responsibility for waking up in the middle of the night for sick duty, driving kids hither and yon, dealing with tough homework issues (like getting it done before midnight) etc.

Perhaps this is an instructive example. My husband is an amateur musician and at times he is gone WAY TOO MUCH. However what makes that palatable to me is that I admire his talent and his love of music and his willingness to do what he has to do to make it. I am willing (to a point) to accomodate that for him, even though it means I get more than my share of the crappy parts of childrearing because I share his valuing of that pursuit.

If your spouse does not admire your religious calling, or your willingness to make yourself available to parishioners 24/7--if she doesn't feel a co-calling to be a spouse of a clergyperson--ask yourselves if that is going to be a stressor once the kids come along. Or do you think you can find a sort of position where that kind of commitment is not demanded of you? Would you want that kind of job? Or maybe the two of you anticipate a traditional sort of arrangement where the mom is on call most of the time anyway, and the dad brings home the paycheck? Maybe that works out too.

Anyway, I am thinking you have to talk about that. It is hard to underestimate how demanding life with children can be, and how dramatically they can change a marital relationship.

[luckycanuck]

Oh my! I didn't realize there was so much interest in this subject.

In response to some of the comments left overnight:

Keith,

I have spoken to many clergy about this, and I seem to get differing views from them. Some have partners who are the traditional vicar's wife, some have partners who are not involved in the church, and some have partners who are not believers. I respect the views that all of them have given me, but it hasn't gotten me any simple answers. (Of course, I suspect that if I want easy answers, I am asking the wrong questions!)

I am trying to consider if the two of us can be on the same page on this, and at the moment I can't see how. I know she has been very supportive and it has moved me a great deal to see it, but I don't know how supportive she can be of a calling that is foreign to her understanding.

At times I have had the Saviour complex as you put it. I do have the desire to fix things, and I have been slowly learning that I can't always do that. I am very happy that I have been able to show her something more positive than what she knew, but I know I can't treat her like a conversion project. It's not fair to put that kind of pressure on her.

Helen,

She and I are taking some time apart, and we are trying to communicate as little as possible. I know that sounds bad, but about a month ago we made the decision together to have some time to work out what we both wanted in solitude. Besides that, she loves me, and it was painful for her to spend time with me when she wasn't sure if we could be together in the end.

I have thought about what a future parish woud think about her being an atheist, and about what it would mean for kids. She thinks that her atheism would make me more approachable and less intimidating to the unchurched, because it would be proof that I am respectful of the views of others and non-judgemental. That seems to be clear as day to her, but it is cloudy to me. Would any of the non-Christians here feel more comfortable in a church where the vicar's wife was an atheist? (That sounds like an interesting poll question.)

As for kids, we have spoken about how they would be raised. When they are young, I would want to raise them much as my parents raised me. I would give them a strong Christian background, and that is fine with her. She is gracious enough not to contradict me when they are young, but in time, I know they will have to make their own commitment or not, and that I can't force the subject. I accept that their understanding of God will change as the grow just as mine did. Whether that leads them back to religion as it did in my case, or whether it does not is something I know I can't influence.

Still, I recognize that it would be harder to make this work in practice rather than in theory. I am going to take care to be mindful of the hazards that lie ahead for us.

Karen,

The fact that you are able to empathize with your husband must be a great blessing. In my case, she academically understands a lot of the key theological points, but it doesn't resonate with her on a personal level.

Of the three clergy at my usual parish, one is married to a woman who is keenly involved in church life, one is divorced (from a Christian woman), and one is 75 and never married. I am mindful therefore that being a Christian does not mean that marriage is easy and that marriage to the clergy is even tougher. Just finding myself a nice Christian girl won't fix things, but you are right to point out that there is a great deal of potential conflict in store.

Siamang,

Her negative upbringing in the church didn't help things, but that isn't why she's an atheist. She is an atheist for the same reason as many here are, which is to say that she doesn't believe the evidence is there to support it intellectually. (It has even occurred to me that she would likely enjoy a forum like this, but as I mentioned earlier, we have chosen not to speak for a while.)

She once told me that she would like to believe, but she can't. I know that faith doesn't come to everyone easily, but I have wondered if being around me is a part of her own journey. Of course, I don't know where that journey will take her, and I am certainly aware that I can't steer her into anything. Being scientifically minded myself, I know that the evidence isn't there to support a theistic worldview, but I don't base my faith on evidence. I know she isn't going to give up her skepticism, but I wonder if she might come to see religion and science as both being legitimate ways to answer different questions about the universe, just as I do. I hope what I just tried to explain makes sense.

By the way, I have dealt in the past with kind atheists, and with appallingly rude atheists. I know the difference, and I know what you meant by your comments. I think there is a lot of similarity between how you feel and how she feels, and I appreciate you being here to talk about this.

The same goes for everyone else. I know there is no easy and painless answer to this, but it is good to have you all around as I try to sort this out.

Billy

[Siamang]

luckycanuck wrote:

[TXatheist]

Billy,
Not to bombard you with more I'll just give you my life with my wife. She is a liberal xian who hopes heaven is true so she can reunite with her family. We have a happy middle ground at Universal Unitarian services where the bible doesn't have much if any relevance.

[luckycanuck]

NCxian,

I appreciate your contribution on the impact the priesthood would likely have on the family. I appreciate the necessity that whoever I end up with would have to appreciate, and as you put it "admire" my religious calling. That is why I have to find out what my vocation means to her, and to find out if she loves my faith. Even if she doesn't share it, I feel that she must love it, and she must want to be a part of it if that makes any sense.

It's hard enough trying to figure out whether or not I have the capacity to do what would be demanded of me without bringing her into it.

Siamang,

My question on the comfort level of atheists in church was neither an invitation (though if you find yourself in Australia feel free to drop by) nor an attempt to proselytise. I know that some people are uncomfortable with organised religion, and her theory is that people would find it easier to relate to me if they knew I was openminded enough to be married to an atheist. (Though I also appreciate that some may see that as evidence that I don't take my faith seriously.)

Your comments on doubt are interesting. I have never really felt the kind of doubt you describe. I drifted away from my parents church in my late teens but it wasn't out of doubt. I've never not believed some form of what I now believe, so I don't have first hand experience of what you describe, but I do think that doubt can be a valuable aspect of faith. A theology course I am taking right now gives me the option to write on whether or not doubt is an integral part of faith rather than the negation of it.

I would like to be there to support in a non-patronising way those who experience doubt, including her. That is not to say there is something gravely wrong with her now, and I certainly have never held to the belief that God condemns those who are on the other side of the fence. I have spent a long time (probably longer than many given my closeness to a non-believer) contemplating the nature of salvation, and the breadth of Christ's sacrifice and of God's truth. I wouldn't say I have the answers, but I do think I am asking the right questions. I will try to fill in the blanks on this when I get the time. (I'll be travelling for work for two weeks starting Saturday so it may be tough for a while.)

TXatheist,

To give you a brief history of my background, I grew up as a Presbyterian in Canada, but drifted away in my late teens, in part because I felt that was my parents church and I attended by default. I came back to the church as a liberal anglo-catholic in large part because of their emphasis on the eucharist and on the cross.

[isaone]

Welcome to the group Billy. I hope you find it useful and stay around after this thread dies.

There were two quotes that stand out for me from your posts. You say